Before I get to the rest of your claims: Under the definition you provided, was October 7th a genocide? ᐧ
On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 3:21 PM Paul Shorb <[email protected]> wrote: > Whether Israel's ongoing operations in Gaza constitute "genocide" > admittedly is debatable; it's literally being debated in the International > Court of Justice, in a case initially brought by South Africa. But > asserting that label applies is not crazy - see the most commonly accepted > definition of "genocide" and other info below from Wikipedia. > > Even if that label doesn't apply, it seems clear, per Amnesty > International and others, that Israel is continuing to commit war crimes, > at a scale hugely greater than the war crimes committed by Hamas. > > From Wikipedia: > > - Regarding the definition of genocide > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention>: > > "The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide > (CPPCG), or the Genocide Convention, is an international treaty > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Agreement> that criminalizes > genocide <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide> and obligates state > parties to pursue the enforcement of its prohibition. It was the first > legal instrument to codify > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codification_(law)> genocide as a crime > and the first human rights treaty > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_treaty_bodies> unanimously > adopted by the United Nations General Assembly > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly> on 9 > December 1948, during the third session of the United Nations General > Assembly > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_session_of_the_United_Nations_General_Assembly> > . > .... > The Genocide Convention was conceived largely in response to World War II > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II>, which saw atrocities > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes#1939%E2%80%931945:_World_War_II> > such as the Holocaust <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust> that > lacked an adequate description or legal definition. > .... > The Convention defines genocide as any of five "*acts committed with > intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or > religious group.*" These five acts include killing members of the group, > causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions > intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring > children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or > perceived membership of a group, not randomly." > > - Regarding evidence that Israel's operations in Gaza constitute > genocide > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa%27s_genocide_case_against_Israel> > : > > "The *Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of > the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel)* is an > ongoing case <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law> that was > brought before the International Court of Justice > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice> on 29 > December 2023 by South Africa <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa> > regarding Israel <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel>'s conduct in the Gaza > Strip <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip> during the Gaza war > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war>, that resulted in a humanitarian > crisis > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_humanitarian_crisis_(2023%E2%80%93present)> > and mass killings. > > South Africa alleged that Israel had committed and was committing genocide > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide> against Palestinians > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation> in the > Gaza Strip, contravening the Genocide Convention > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention>.... > .... > > In an effort to establish genocidal intent behind the actions, a very > difficult task, South Africa cited statements by Israeli leaders, such as > Prime > Minister <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Israel> Benjamin > Netanyahu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu>'s > invocations to "Remember what Amalek > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek> has done to you," referencing the > total destruction of Amalek by the Israelites in the Bible > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible>, President > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Israel> Isaac Herzog > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Herzog>'s statement "*It's an entire > nation out there that is responsible*. *It's not true this rhetoric about > civilians not aware not involved*. It's absolutely not true. ... and we > will fight until we break their backbone," and Minister of Defense > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Defense_(Israel)> Yoav > Gallant's 'situation update' advising Israel is "*imposing a complete > siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is > closed. We are fighting human animals and are acting accordingly.*"[ > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa%27s_genocide_case_against_Israel#cite_note-ICJ_SA_proceedings_vs_IL_29Dec2023-4> > and > military officials and representatives, asserting that these "*indicate > in and of themselves a clear intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a > group 'as such*'". The submission further asserts that these statements > constitute direct and public > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_genocide#%22Direct%22> incitement > to genocide <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_genocide> which > has gone "unchecked and unpunished" and is instead being implemented; on > this, the submission cites Israeli soldiers on the ground. In October > 2024, the South African team submitted hundreds of pages of evidence which > it stated proved Israel's intent to commit genocide. *[emphasis added]* > .... > > In its Order of 26 January 2024, while not granting South Africa's request > to order Israel to suspend its military operations in Gaza, the Court > ordered Israel to take measures to prevent acts of genocide in the Gaza > Strip, and to report to the Court regarding by 23 February 2024;[ > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa%27s_genocide_case_against_Israel#cite_note-theguardian20240120-91>to > prevent and punish incitement to genocide; to allow humanitarian aid into > Gaza; and generally, to take more measures to protect Palestinians. > .... > As ordered by the court, Israel on 26 February 2024, filed a report about > measures taken to comply with the interim ruling, which was not released to > the press or the public. > Human Rights Watch said that Israel had not complied with at least one > provisional measure, stating fewer humanitarian aid trucks entered Gaza > after the ruling than in the weeks preceding it. Amnesty International > similarly said Israel had not complied with the ICJ ruling to ensure > sufficient aid to Palestinians in Gaza. The United Nations Special > Rapporteur on the Right to Food > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Special_Rapporteur_on_the_Right_to_Food>, > Michael Fakhri, described what was occurring in Gaza as "*a situation of > genocide"*. Oxfam <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfam> stated, "The *risk > of genocide* is increasing in northern Gaza because the Government of > Israel is ignoring one of the key provisions of the International Court of > Justice, to provide urgently needed basic services and humanitarian > assistance". Doctors Without Borders > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors_Without_Borders> stated, "There > are no signs of Israeli forces attempting to limit the loss of civilian > life or alleviate the suffering of people." *[emphasis added]* > .... > > On 5 April 2024, the court set the schedule for comprehensive submissions > of legal opinions by South Africa and Israel. The time limit for the South > African memorial <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_(law)> was set > to be 28 October 2024, and for the Israeli response 28 July 2025. South > Africa filed its memorial on 28 October 2024.In accordance with the ICJ's > rules, the memorial is not public. It contains over 750 pages of text and > over 4,000 pages of exhibits and annexes. On 14 April 2025, the ICJ > extended the deadline for Israel's response to 12 January 2026." > > > On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 1:49 PM Seth Rosen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Paul, if you believe “genocide” is what’s being perpetrated by Israel, >> there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind. >> >> Seth >> >> On May 23, 2025, at 1:47 PM, Paul Shorb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Seth - >> I can agree to all of that you said and still ask: What about the >> genocide that is being conducted right now, by Israel, with resources >> provided by the United States? >> - Paul Shorb >> >> On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 1:38 PM Seth Rosen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I find it very frustrating when folks make these suggestions. It sounds >>> so easy - just negotiate! As if no one in Israel has ever thought of that, >>> or tried it. Here’s the thing I’m not sure you’re picking up… Israel’s >>> enemies don’t want to negotiate. That is not the stated goal. They are not >>> “seeking a compromise” >>> >>> They want Israel gone, and they want the Jews in it gone. The reason I >>> can state this so unequivocally is because they have stated it >>> unequivocally. >>> >>> I would be very interested to understand how you propose to negotiate >>> given that starting position. I negotiate all day long for a living and I >>> don’t have any good ideas. >>> >>> October 7th did not happen because of Israel’s negligence. It happened >>> because a terrorist group dedicated to Israel’s destruction sent an army of >>> evil into Israel to rape women, kill babies, shoot innocent civilians, and >>> kidnap the ones they didn’t kill. Israeli intelligence was absolutely >>> negligent in not being more vigilant, but that’s not the reason. >>> >>> If you want peace, it’s easy. If they put down their weapons, there >>> will be a Palestinian state. If the Israelis put down their weapons there >>> will be another holocaust. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 23, 2025, at 1:22 PM, Bijoy Misra <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Not sit back idle, but negotiate. >>> Killing a hundred people through overhead bombing does not show any >>> humanity! >>> As I have come to know Oct 7 happened through Israel's negligence. >>> You don't take revenge by starving innocent children. >>> It is overwhelming to see these difficult pictures and then bomb >>> overhead. >>> We are several hundred years behind now! >>> >>> On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 1:08 PM Rick Sale <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Agreed and well put! >>>> >>>> Now if we can get the people, like those who initiated October 7 and >>>> those who initiated 911 and those who call for the destruction of Israel >>>> and wiping them off the face of the map every day, to STOP that and their >>>> horrifically destructive ideology, maybe we would get somewhere? What do >>>> you think? >>>> >>>> Or should Israel just sit idly by and let Hamas, Iran, and all their >>>> neighbors just wipe them off the face of the map? Perhaps they’re just >>>> joking around? >>>> >>>> Unless and until that rhetoric and attempts at annihilation an entire >>>> people dissipates….. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 12:55 PM Bijoy Misra <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't have a stake in this. But seeing a hundred people being >>>>> killed every day by overhead >>>>> bombing does bother me. I would appreciate it if the activists have a >>>>> voice against it. These >>>>> hundreds of bombed people and starving children are as innocent as the >>>>> couple in DC. >>>>> Let all human beings be treated equally. >>>>> Bijoy Misra >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 10:28 AM Seth Rosen <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jonathan Sheffi has already offered a thoughtful and fact-based >>>>>> admonishment of the GRALTA content. He offered exhaustive commentary on >>>>>> the specific claims made in the content and on the website, with specific >>>>>> references. He is not simply claiming it’s antisemitic content, he is >>>>>> explaining precisely why it is antisemitic. He has proposed a counter >>>>>> narrative supported by the evidence. It happens to also be a powerful >>>>>> one, >>>>>> because it’s true. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you take issue with his assertions about the nature and character >>>>>> of the content, why not actually respond to the facts? Instead of the ad >>>>>> hominem attacks. Which facts have been misrepresented? >>>>>> >>>>>> With two Jews gunned down in the streets by a guy shouting “free >>>>>> Palestine” one of your Jewish neighbors is still writing to a public >>>>>> email >>>>>> list with thousands of members to stand with integrity against the >>>>>> proliferation of antisemitic propaganda. And I stand with him. >>>>>> >>>>>> Seth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 23, 2025, at 9:50 AM, Sara Mattes <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Freedom of speech allows for inaccurate statements, >>>>>> misrepresentations of facts and replacing facts with opinions and then >>>>>> others echoing them as facts. >>>>>> Unfortunately, this is happening here, again. >>>>>> >>>>>> GRALATA Foundation has been clear and consistent about its mission, >>>>>> readily available on its website, in its programs and literature. >>>>>> >>>>>> For straightforward reporting of facts, you might consider a >>>>>> subscription to *Haaretz*, a great Israeli newspaper. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 22, 2025, at 3:52 PM, Rick Sale <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Spot on and thank you for stating this Seth. >>>>>> >>>>>> …… >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, May 22, 2025 at 3:26 PM Seth Rosen <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jonathan Sheffi has already pointed out, in great detail and rather >>>>>>> articulately, exactly why the propaganda films being screened in >>>>>>> Lincoln by >>>>>>> Gralta are anti-Semitic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> He has also made the point on numerous occasions that perpetuating >>>>>>> these false narratives really does have real world consequences. It is >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> innocuous as some have suggested. And two Israeli kids murdered by a >>>>>>> “free >>>>>>> Palestine activist” are an unfortunate affirmation of his point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While you and your cohort are free to attend the screenings, he too >>>>>>> should be free to criticize them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > On May 22, 2025, at 12:18 PM, Joan Kimball <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > It is both untrue and offensive to link this effort to >>>>>>> antisemitism. >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>> To post, send mail to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> Rick >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>> To post, send mail to [email protected]. >>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>> To post, send mail to [email protected]. >>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>> To post, send mail to [email protected]. >>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Rick >>>> >>> -- >>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>> To post, send mail to [email protected]. >>> Browse the archives at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>> Change your subscription settings at >>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>> >>> -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to [email protected]. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > >
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