Linux-Advocacy Digest #641, Volume #30 Mon, 4 Dec 00 04:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Commentary on a Windows REinstallation last night ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Ketil Z Malde)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Linux is awful (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux is awful (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Whistler review. ("BaX")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Goodwin Acknowledges he's an idiot. (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux is awful (Steven Lembark)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 07:16:29 GMT
On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:06:43 -0600, Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The problem is that it's not in Dell's best interests to sell you a computer
>without Windows. They'll sell you a Linux system, because they don't want
>to lose that piece of the market, but selling a computer without any OS puts
>them at a disadvantage.
>
>What disadvantage, you ask? The more copies of Windows they sell, the
>cheaper their cost to buy it per unit, the more profit per unit they make.
>Since their competitors are also doing things to get cheaper per unit costs,
>they must as well. If they allowed people to buy computers without an OS,
>their profits would go down.
>
Their profits would go down?
Well, to sell a computer without an OS is brainless but
I have to disagree with you about your comment on profits
going down. Dell isn't making any money for installing
Windows. They are installing Windows because of the
WHINING BABY crowd like you. If the WHINING BABY crowd
doesn't get their bottle they start WHINING.
You probably couldn't buy the office coffee with the
money either lost or made from installing Windows.
You need to start thinking about the support bucks
going out the door from customers complaining about
their WIN SHIT which won't install right.
Shit! HA! Windows makes people a profit.
What you should have said was people demand Windows
so they are still loading it on their machine!
If they could get away with NOT installing any
operating system, they would gladly!
There's much EXPENSE to having Windows.
That's why we have dozens of gelatin filled
support reps at every company to help people
keep this PEOPLE ORIENTED/EASY TO INSTALL
AND RUN system a float.
The mere notion that Windows makes ANYBODY a profit
is absolutely laughable.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commentary on a Windows REinstallation last night
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 03:19:02 -0500
Glitch wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> i had the fortunate experience last night of reinstalling Windows98. I
> have to say that after experiencing Linux installs and going back to a
> Windows install left me basically wondering why I even put up with it
> (but i have got programs that only work in Windows so i have to put up
> withit for now).
>
> The initial time frame said 30-60 minutes until the process was done.
> After the screen was updated the time jumped to 87 minutes. HOw MS could
> approximate time that far off is beyond me. If anything I'd tell users
> 90 minutes so at least they wouldn't sink in their seats when the
> timespan went up instead of down.
>
> After waiting for the files to copy it tried to configure PnP hardware.
> Afterwards I had to reboot of course. Then it goes into Windows I
> believe after this setting up the Menus and various other things if I
> recall correctly. Also, if I recall correctly it tried to setup other
> hardware that I had as well. For some reason though I had to install my
> ATI drivers, my sound drivers, my Adaptec 2930u2 driver, my dvdrom
> driver, my modem driver, and my NIC driver. But before all that was
> actually accomplished the system froze on the first or 2nd device it was
> setting things up for, which of course I had to reboot in order to get
> out of.
>
> Eventually i got to get all my drivers in and I got to sit through 5-10
> reboots. I forget how many exactly. I did try to save time rebooting
> byinstalling 3 devices at once and then rebooting. That did help
> somewhat.
>
> After about the 4th reboot I believe I lost my sound(which is what
> happened the first time I installed Win98; this was my 2nd
> installation). Windows feels it necessary to mute my Wave device every
> single time I boot. Don't ask me why. I'm still struggling to get my
> Dvd working (which was fine under Win95). Windows sometimes sees it,
> sometimes it doesn't "feel" like it and therefore I can't watch movies
> whenever I want to.
>
> Now as for the comparison betweeen windows and Linux. I wonder why it
> takes 3 reboots to get Windows up and running so you can use it when it
> only takes Linux once? And after those 3 reboots you still have to
> configure your hardware by installing drivers. When I install Suse Linux
> i can configure my modem and my video card during the installation. For
> some reason I can't do that in Windows even though there is a step where
> it supposedly 'configures' your hardware. Plus, on an initial install u
> won't have much to do with Windows. At least with Linux I had a ton of
> utilities already on the system as well as some games I could try out.
> Given they aren't games like Quake or C&C but then again Windows doesn't
> come with those either. Actually, Windows doesn't come with anything
> really useful, besides an OS that likes to act like a web browser and
> vice versa.
>
> I know one thing. If I have to do this again I'm not putting Windows
> back on this drive. The Windows isntall was pathetic compared to a
> Linux install. I was asking myself why it had to reboot 3 times when
> Linux doesn't, among various other things.
>
> well, there is my rant.
> have fun with it
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
From: Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 08:19:45 GMT
"Chad C. Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> Are you psychic or psychotic?
>> You don't have to be either, just a bit less than dim-witted. If you
>> use e.g. SGML for your data format, it isn't very hard to be forward
>> compatible.
> But that isn't the case, and IIRC nobody is doing that.
Yes, a lot of people use closed and proprietary data formats, since
they then get an interface they're used to. Not everybody,though.
It's not a technical problem, though, the lack of forward
compatibility is either due to
a) incompetence and short-sightedness
b) wishing to lock in users and force software upgrades
c) malice
In most cases, I'd be inclined to suggest a). Feel free to make up
your own mind.
-kzm
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 03:29:33 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>
> >>>> Tom Wilson writes:
>
> >>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>
> >>>>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>
> >>>>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>
> >>>>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>
> >>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>
> >>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>
> >>>>> You'd be surprised....
> >>>>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>
> >>>> We're talking about intuition, not incompetence.
>
> >>> Put an electric appliance in front of somebody who has never
> >>> used an electric appliance before, and you'll learn that there
> >>> is absolutely NOTHING intuitive about on/off switches.
>
> >> Once again, you're hypothesizing a situation that precludes
> >> intuition.
>
> Note: no response.
>
> >>> They are merely FAMILIAR, not intuitive.
>
> >> How is an electric appliance familiar to someone who has never
> >> used an electic appliance before?
>
> > PRECISELY,
>
> Precisely why your analogy fails. You're going outside the relevant
> group, namely those who use electrical appliances. Just because some
> hypothetical "primitive tribesman" won't find a power switch intuitive
> doesn't mean that nobody can find a power switch to be intuitive.
> Familiarity does not have to be universal before something can be
> intuitive to someone.
>
> > shit-head
>
> You must really be hurting for a logical argument.
Just commenting on your inability to comprehend a logical argument.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 08:21:29 GMT
In article <90f756$f77$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Correct me if I am wrong, but what I understand you are saying is that
Linux
> is great however, there are some quirks that need to be fixed up, and the
> GUI needs to be refined a little more before the mainstream user jumps on
> the bandwagon. Correct?
Pretty much, though I can't stand the CLI command set.
--
---
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 08:25:41 GMT
In article <pBDW5.29926$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ISA is all we had for a long time and it worked as long as you configured
> it yourself. However the 152x cards are basically CPU driven, and the
> 154x can only use DMA into the lower 16M of memory (the ISA limit) and
> the kernel has to use an extra buffer there, then copy where it was
supposed
> to go, so it probably isn't what you want on a high performance machine.
My other machine has a AHA2940, a PCI SCSI controller. Everything works
just fine with it.
--
---
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 08:32:39 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So your never going to get an answer out of anybody as you
> are left with NO PROOF. It's CLOSED SOURCE.
If you can isolate the problem yourself by writing small sample programs
that demonstrate the problem, then there's your proof.
--
---
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 06:50:08 GMT
Jeff Glatt writes:
> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>> 12 years of posting to USENET, and [Tholen is] STILL the biggest
>> moron I've ever come across.
> Yet another quote for the Tholen archive,
Totally devoid of context, as usual. Why don't you show Aaron claiming
that nothing about a computer is intuitive? Why don't you show him
relying on invective rather than logical argument?
> and yet more evidence that Tholen is widely regarded as a fool among
> usenet readers
Yet more evidence that Glatt doesn't know what "widely regarded" means.
------------------------------
From: "BaX" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:48:17 +0100
Uzytkownik "kiwiunixman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> napisal w wiadomosci
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> <snip>
>
> hmmm, 3 days and no reply, stumped for a rebuttle?
mozesz sie nie podpisywac za mnie???
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 06:54:04 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
>> I wrote:
>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>>>> You'd be surprised....
>>>>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>>>> The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>>> You mean you need to consult a manual to learn how to turn a computer
>>> on???
>> Considerring whom you are talking to, I wouldn't be surprised.
> Are you trying to compete with Tholen for the title of
> Biggest complete dumbass on the internet?
You're erroneously presupposing that your evaluation counts for
anything. Reliance on invective instead of a logical argument
speaks volumes, Aaron.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Goodwin Acknowledges he's an idiot.
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 08:41:54 GMT
In article <3a2ad31c$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"sandrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What has this have to do with GNOME? KDE != GNOME
Well DUH!
I'm trying to run on Linux something that is halfway to what I would
expect with Windows (but not Windows) and that means either GNOME or
KDE. From reading various posts, I decided to try KDE 2.0, not the hot
potch of cobbled together bits and pieces you get with neither GNOME or
KDE, one of which works one way, and another a completely different way.
The fact that KDE 2.0 is remarkably similar to Windows is a bonus but
not essential.
Unfortunately, it's the bleeding edge, judging by the number of crashes
and hangs I'm getting.
--
---
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 08:35:52 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You know what amuses me?
What amuses me is that you believe this!
> Conversely, on Unix, you can run ANY combination of software
> with little concern about it impacting stability.
>
> Why?
>
> Because Windows DLLS are a nightmare, whereas Unix/Linux
> libraries are well managed.
>
> And THAT alone makes a hell of a difference.
Really?
ANY software is capable of taking out your system. It don't matter if
its UNIX or Windows (though I'll accept Windows is easier to make fall
over).
Take KDE 2.0 and X. Twice now, KDE has hung my X server and locked up my
machine.
--
---
Pete
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Steven Lembark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 02:52:51 -0600
> > Rozzi, my good friend, there's that thing called brain that you need to use
> > in order to succeeed with Linux. Apparently you lack the above mentioned
> > item, or don't know how to use it properly.
>
> This is the kind of elitist attitude that kills Linux in the general market.
> Most people are *not* programmers, and *not* computer geeks. They just
> want to be able to turn the computer on and do their work.
>
> I'm all for Linux, and am slowly making the shift to only Linux, but the more
> I'm involved with it, the more I get the feeling that the Linux community is
> not really interested in helping the average user. In fact, they tend to
> view the average user as a 'luser' which is pathetic really.
>
> Linux users wake up! Don't slap new users in the face.
responses to first time users are generally proportional to their
postings. the original posting was generally a rant. fine, feel
free to blow off steam. but don't expect to get any particularly
helpful feedback from them.
netiquite indicates that if you want help ask for it and you'll
at least get RTFM and a pointer to the proper place; start by
calling linux in general a crock and you'll get slapped...
i've seen any number of non-geeks install RH on notebooks,
mis-detected video cards can be handled in several ways if
you bother to read the installation manaul -- using the text
install being the simplest one. these methods are outlined
in RH's FM. a quick posting describing the problem and asking
if there were a better way to go about handning a mis-detected
video card would also have gone a long way.
--
Steven Lembark 2930 W. Palmer St.
Chicago, IL 60647
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 800-762-1582
------------------------------
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