Linux-Misc Digest #985, Volume #20 Sat, 10 Jul 99 00:13:10 EDT
Contents:
Re: dumb question (John Mitchell)
Re: Anybody got EPSON Stylus Color 640 or 850 ---------- ("Kaushik --,->")
Re: Could Microsoft Cheat On The New Mindcraft Benchmark? (Darren Winsper)
Re: serial module problem (Silviu Minut)
Re: Help! Can't print in Linux from a compiled kernel (Moritz Moeller-Herrmann)
HELP, someone, please. :) (Rizwan Syed)
Re: Amiga announces Linux kernel is new Amiga kernal - Opinions? (Christopher Browne)
Re: Linux vs Hurd (David Bullock)
Re: Linux vs Hurd (Christopher B. Browne)
Re: Sending dual boot machine for tech support (Stewart Honsberger)
Re: Problems mounting a zip disk (Jacob Ratkiewicz)
Re: Q: where to get base linux source ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Cant get Creative Ensoniq AudioPCI to work ("Muuga")
Re: kpackage won't install on RH 6.0. Help!! (Albert Wagner)
Re: Need opinions- how's S.u.S.E. 6.1 (Stewart Honsberger)
Re: Pronouncing "Linux" - dirty Yank cant pronounce (Stewart Honsberger)
Re: Problems mounting a zip disk ("Charles Sullivan")
Re: computer literacy (was 'Linux viruses' or something) (Robert McConnell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Mitchell)
Subject: Re: dumb question
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:57:29 GMT
Thanks - it worked. I didn't realize what exec did.
John
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:34:08 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Mitchell) wrote:
>
>>I compiled a "hello, world" app w/ gcc in the /root directory (while logged in
>
>>as root) - gcc test.c, where test.c had this in it:
>>
>>#include <stdio.h>
>>
>>int main()
>>{
>>fprint("hello");
>>return 0;
>>}
>
>Nope...
>
>it should be...
>
> #include <stdio.h>
> int main()
> {
> printf("hello\n"); /* not fprint(), and include newline */
> return 0;
> }
>
>
>>the compile goes fine, but when I run a.out by typing exec /root/a.out, I
>
>Nope...
>
>The command as written (exec /root/a.out) will replace your current shell
>(the one you are logged in to) with the execution of /root/a.out, and when
>/root/a.out ends, so do you.
>
>What you *want* to do is type
> /root/a.out
>at the shell prompt. Your shell will fork off a child process, and run
>/root/a.out in it. Meanwhile, the shell will stick around, and you won't
>be logged out.
>
>>immediately get a login prompt. ls says I have execute permission, but I set
>>it with chmod just to make sure. It still does the same thing. Someone please
>>help me pull my head out of my ass.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>JPM
>>
>
>
>Lew Pitcher
>System Consultant, Integration Solutions Architecture
>Toronto Dominion Bank
>
>([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>
>
>(Opinions expressed are my own, not my employer's.)
------------------------------
From: "Kaushik --,->" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anybody got EPSON Stylus Color 640 or 850 ----------
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 21:07:15 -0500
Reply-To: kaushik_rATworldnetDAWTattDAWTnet
I have a Lexmark 5700 and the darn thing doesn't do color! Thats why I was
wondering if EPSON was any good. And I can't afford a Postscript printer!!
Too expensive. btw, which version of ghostscript did you try. I read that the
new one that comes with RH6.0 does better printing. I found this info at:
http://www.picante.com/~gtaylor/pht/printer_list.cgi
btw, which printer were you talking about? the 640 or 850?
Kaushik
Acadix Software Systems wrote:
> Yes, I have one, and no it doesn't work very well. I've tried several
> different versions of Ghostscript, and the result is always muddy colors,
> and very slow output. I also contacted Epson, and there response was
> "unfortunately, we only support Windows and Mac". To get quality output,
> I've had to print from Windows using the Epson driver.
>
> My best advice is to get a Postscript printer. Then you won't need any
> printer drivers, and the output will be faster and more true to color.
> Someone recommended Lexmark to me - they have a low cost postscript inkjet
> printer. I can't offer any more, since I haven't tried it myself.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Jason
--
============================================
Kaushik Raghavan
"ASCII stupid question, get stupid ANSI"
============================================
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Darren Winsper)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.networking,omp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.infosystems.www.servers.unix
Subject: Re: Could Microsoft Cheat On The New Mindcraft Benchmark?
Date: 9 Jul 1999 13:21:49 GMT
On 8 Jul 1999 18:06:01 -0700, Jason O'Rourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Darren Winsper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> That has far more to do with the fact that Baseball was invented in the
> >> USA than any sort of national egotism.
> >
> >You have a funny definition of invented. It looks more like a
> >derivative of rounders to me.
>
> that's a reach. It's no different than saying the Brits invented American
> football because it is based on something like rugby and football (what
> was the sequence: football -> rubgy -> american football?).
To my knowledge, rugby actually came into being during of a football
match. It evolved into what it is today from there. American
football certainly looks like a derivative of rugby to me. But then
again, we don't wear so much padding.
--
Darren Winsper - http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/darren.winsper
'"Whaddar we gonna do today Bill?" "The same thing we do every day,
Balmer...."' - Craig Kelly in comp.os.linux.advocacy
------------------------------
From: Silviu Minut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: serial module problem
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 21:09:57 -0400
I figured it out.
Ignore.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Moritz Moeller-Herrmann)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,alt.uu.comp.os.linux.questions
Subject: Re: Help! Can't print in Linux from a compiled kernel
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:47:17 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:28:06 -0500, dkmallick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I am using Linux-Mandrake 6.0 on a Pentium II 333.Everything prints fine
>from the kernel 2.2.9 that came with the distribution. Howver, I cannot
>print anything from kernel 2.2.5 that I had to compile just so that I can
>use my sound card. I made sure that I compiled this kernel with parallel
>port support, printer support etc.
If you use modules for the parport add a setting like
alias parport_lowlevel parport_pc
and maybe
options parport_pc io=0x378 irq=none,none
to /etc/conf.modules.
[...]
--
Moritz Moeller-Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ# 3585990 # Not only
Get my public pgp / gpg key from # Open Source(TM)
http://webrum.uni-mannheim.de/jura/moritz/pubkeymoritz # but also
KDE forever! Use Linux to impress your friends! # Open Minded!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rizwan Syed)
Subject: HELP, someone, please. :)
Date: 9 Jul 1999 13:45:39 GMT
Hello,
I need help on a bunch of different things, some really
important, some a little less. :)
1) What file contains the POP3 server. I need to start it so that
we can access our email through a Windows based POP3 client.
2) I have a domaine foo.com. I also have a server, me.foo.com
I want people to be able to send me an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
as well as [EMAIL PROTECTED] and have both of them get the emails
to the server me.foo.com. What do I need to do? I think I need
to have my ISP do something to the DNS entry, but he says he's
done everything, but the email does not work. It is currently
working for @me.foo.com. But the emails sent to @foo.com gets
a relaying error. Anyone know what's up?
3) Anyone know an ftp site where I could get SSH for linux?
Please let me know about any of these things that you can help with.
Thanks
Rizwan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Rizwan Syed
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Amiga announces Linux kernel is new Amiga kernal - Opinions?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:33:10 GMT
On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 22:39:07 GMT, Donald E. Stidwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Today it was announced that the Linux kernal will be used in the new Amigas.
>>
>> Any opinions on this development?
>>
>> Wade Segade
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove the obvious)
>
>Where did you see this announcement? Man, I loved my Amiga - used an Amiga for
>over 7 years. If they put Linux on it, I'd go back to an Amiga in a heartbeat.
There are mixed reports; dunno which of these two are the "most
authoritative."
<http://www.qnx.com/amiga/> Delivering on Our Promise to the Amiga
Community
<http://www.amiga.com/diary/executive/linux-e.html> Amiga Executive
Update - Amiga to use Linux
--
Rules of the Evil Warlord #23. "When I employ people as advisors, I
will occasionally listen to their advice."
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Bullock)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Linux vs Hurd
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:50:52 GMT
On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:03:25 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Christopher B. Browne) wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 23:07:29 GMT, David Bullock
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted:
>>They've also started work on the new killer app: An optical/voice
>>recognition replacement for the command line interface inspired by the
>>way HAL9000 read lips in 2001:
>>
>>Eye/Hurd/You
>>
>>Sorry
>>I couldn't resist.
>>I'm taking donations for therapy :)
>
>*TAKING* donations?!? *TAKING* donations?!?!#$*!?
>
>Even stipulated that there are bad puns out there (e.g. - "Hird of
>Unix-Replacing Daemons," and "Hurd of Interfaces Representing Depth,"
>which are the set of mutually recursive acronyms which Hurd stands for),
>I think YOU have to pay ME for the therapy I'll need after that pun...
Maybe we can get a group rate?
On the other hand maybe therapy isn't such a good idea. I could go.
See a psychiatrist, get diagnosed, and wake up in a mental hospital
with a chart that said...
Hospitalized Under Recommendation of Doctor
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher B. Browne)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Linux vs Hurd
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:03:25 GMT
On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 23:07:29 GMT, David Bullock
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted:
>They've also started work on the new killer app: An optical/voice
>recognition replacement for the command line interface inspired by the
>way HAL9000 read lips in 2001:
>
>Eye/Hurd/You
>
>Sorry
>I couldn't resist.
>I'm taking donations for therapy :)
*TAKING* donations?!? *TAKING* donations?!?!#$*!?
Even stipulated that there are bad puns out there (e.g. - "Hird of
Unix-Replacing Daemons," and "Hurd of Interfaces Representing Depth,"
which are the set of mutually recursive acronyms which Hurd stands for),
I think YOU have to pay ME for the therapy I'll need after that pun...
--
Referring to undocumented private communications allows one to claim
virtually anything: "we discussed this idea in our working group last
year, and concluded that it was totally brain-damaged".
-- from the Symbolics Guidelines for Sending Mail
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/oshurd.html>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stewart Honsberger)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.portable,comp.sys.laptops
Subject: Re: Sending dual boot machine for tech support
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:33:44 GMT
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:07:58 -0400, M. Talley wrote:
>Dell has you remove the hard drive and any memory before sending back. I
>have never had Dell ask me about space on my hard drive in trouble shooting.
>It is interesting you say all of this about Gateway.
WHAT? The HDD and RAM are two of the most sensitive (and important) parts
of the computer!
Just today, three of the six machines on the bench I was working at had
problems with either the RAM or the HDD. Two needed new RAM, the other's
HDD was fried.
That's wrong. Plain and simply wrong.
--
Stewart Honsberger (AKA Blackdeath) @ http://sprk.com/blackdeath/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Remove 'thirteen' to reply privately)
Humming along under SuSE Linux 6.0 / OS/2 Warp 4
------------------------------
From: Jacob Ratkiewicz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Problems mounting a zip disk
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 21:57:58 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
When mounting a FAT16/32 zip disk, you might have to mount partition 4 (on
my system, like so:)
mount /dev/hdd4 /mnt/doszip
mount should be able to figure out the fs type on its own. Yes, the disk
has only one partition, but this somehow maps to partition 4.
On my system I have /dev/doszip s-linked to /dev/hdd4, and I have
/dev/doszip /mnt/doszip msdos noauto,user,rw 0 0
in my /etc/fstab, so I can mount my zip disk with mount /dev/doszip or
mount /mnt/doszip .
regards,
Jacob.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Q: where to get base linux source
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:57:04 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Bob Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > This is going to be an really oddball question, but I want to know
where
> > a good place to find a "base" linux source code. What I would like
to do
> > is get my group together and come up with, what I would like to
call, a
> > "mini" distribution.
> >
> > When I say base, I mean the basic Linux filesystem requirements,
Kernel
> > (I know where to get that), /sbin, /bin, /lib, /usr, /etc, etc. (Not
> > asking *too* much huh ;-) ).
> >
>
> No, not at all. When the linux kernel first appeared on the scene
there
> weren't any distributions, so you had to go find what you wanted ,
> install the source and compile it.
> You can find sources for most things a linux repository site like
> sunsite or tsx-11
> Other than distros, most things you get will be sources. they assume
> most people don't need/want sources. For things like the libs or
> compiler it is best to get a binary unless you got a lot of
> cpu/time/space to compile it.
>
> > I realize that this is vague, and I really know that a Linux
> > installation contains many packages that are used for different
things
> > and one would need to know what one is going to do, but just a
minimum
> > filesystem for now. No Xwindows for example.
> >
> > Would, because of GPL/Copyleft, I be able use the source code from
an
> > existing distribution (most of the bugs worked out) such as the
RedHat I
> > have? Or would I be restricted to source NOT the distributor's code?
> >
>
> The code, in general , is the same from one distro to the other for
most
> applications so it doesn't belong to RH unless it is something
> specifically developed and copyrighted. What you can do with specific
> vendor code will depend on the vendor.
>
Thanks Bob! I have been researching the main filesystem of my Linux and
BeOS to see how similar/different they are by looking at /boot, /bin,
/sbin, /usr/bin and sbin -- paths that are mainly in $PATH to begin
with. The libs are what are going to be tricky I think. Oh well, its a
longshot for us. Thanks again.
PS I found a really interesting filesystem called QNX. they have a demo
that fits on a floppy. It loads into RAM, expands and then is a
filesystem. Its intended to be an embedded OS for, lets say, game boxes,
Interactive VCRs, Web/Internet appliances. Comes complete with GUI.
Check it out if you want. www.qnx.com
-Wes Yates
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
------------------------------
From: "Muuga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Cant get Creative Ensoniq AudioPCI to work
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:31:49 -0500
Alot of ppl swear by this card(thats why I bought it), but it doesnt
configure too well under linux.
Under Win98 its irq=11 I/O=220 DMA=1
of course it works great under windoze :/
this is what it looks like under /proc/pci
#PCI devices found: Bus 0, device 10, function 0:
# Multimedia audio controller: Ensoniq Unknown device (rev 6).
# Vendor id=1274. Device id=1371. Slow devsel. IRQ 11. Master
#Capable. Latency=64. Min Gnt=12.Max Lat=128. I/O at 0xe800.
and /etc/conf.modules
#alias sound sb
#options -k sb io=0x220 irq=11 dma=1
I running RH 5.1 with a recompliled 2.0.37 kernel
on a FIC 503+ k6 300
I must have recompiled 2 dozen times(just for the sound section of make
menuconfig , since I got the card.
i get this on boot up :
#Sound initialization started
#Sound initialization complete
not once did I get something in between :(
maybe im missing something in the sound configuration part of compilation?
CONFIG_SOUND=y
CONFIG_SB=y
CONFIG_AUDIO=y
CONFIG_YM3812=y
SBC_BASE=220
SBC_IRQ=11
SBC_DMA=1
SB_DMA2=-1
SB_MPU_BASE=388
SB_MPU_IRQ=-1
DSP_BUFFSIZE=65536
if you have this card and got it working under linux , please tell me how
you have you box configured.
Thanks
------------------------------
From: Albert Wagner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,comp.windows.x.kde
Subject: Re: kpackage won't install on RH 6.0. Help!!
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:25:40 -0500
Haven't followed the thread, so this may be moot. Have you tried to
rebuild the rpm database? (rpm --rebuilddb)
Spotillius Maximus aka \"Spot\" wrote:
>
> I think I may have gotten past that problem and found a new one. It's now
> asking for other packages that are already installed. I'm getting
> frustrated fast. I will keep trying different thing and see what happens.
> I will keep you posted. Thanks
>
> Ed
>
> Thomas Overgaard wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> >"Spotillius Maximus aka \"Spot\"" <*****@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>I did download through win98 and I think I tried the renaming of the files
> >>and it didn't work. I was very tired when I did it so I may hay screwed
> up.
> >>I'll try it tonight when I get some time. I hope that works. Thanks
> again.
> >>
> >I useally do all major download when running a Win3.11 session. Download is
> >much faster using Win3.11 and then I copy the files from DOS to Linux
> later.
> >
> >But the files I copy from DOS has allways the executable flag set. Maybe
> your
> >problem is the same. Try go to the directory where the copied files are
> stored
> >and use this command: ls -l
> >If the downloaded files return something like this: -rwxr-xr-x
> >Then use this command:
> >chmod -x filename
> >
> >If we did share the problem you can install the files now.
> >--
> >Thomas O.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stewart Honsberger)
Subject: Re: Need opinions- how's S.u.S.E. 6.1
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:44:18 GMT
On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:43:26 +0300, naftali wrote:
>I used SUSE 6.1, and I would like to mention it is one big piece of crap.
>first of all it is really REALLY slow.
In my experience, it soars. There's never any unneccesary disk activity,
programs fly, and even Netscape runs at a tolerable speed. (Whoa!).
It can't be all that bad - the German c't magazine used it in its Linux/NT
benchmarks, and in almost all instances it outperformed NT.
A local ISP recently switched from RedHat to SuSE and they couldn't be
happier.
Could there have been installation errors? Perchance you don't have enough
RAM? Swap space?
>Stick to red-hat
Oh? This is the reverse of all other advise I've seen.
--
Stewart Honsberger (AKA Blackdeath) @ http://sprk.com/blackdeath/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Remove 'thirteen' to reply privately)
Humming along under SuSE Linux 6.0 / OS/2 Warp 4
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stewart Honsberger)
Subject: Re: Pronouncing "Linux" - dirty Yank cant pronounce
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:36:46 GMT
On 07 Jul 1999 20:49:46 -0700, Chris Mahmood wrote:
>if English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for you...
Even for a religious zealot, you're ignorant.
--
Stewart Honsberger (AKA Blackdeath) @ http://sprk.com/blackdeath/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Remove 'thirteen' to reply privately)
Humming along under SuSE Linux 6.0 / OS/2 Warp 4
------------------------------
From: "Charles Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Problems mounting a zip disk
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:08:39 -0400
Perhaps you were previously using ZIP disks initialized under Linux.
For whatever reason, these IBM formatted ZIP disks are set as the 4th
partition.
What happens if you type:
mount -t vfat /dev/hdc4 /mnt/zip
root wrote in message ...
>I've formerly been able to mount a zip disk using the following command:
>
>mount /dev/hdc1 /mnt/zip
>
>I just purchased a new 3-pack of Zip disks that say "Formatted for IBM
>compatables," I assume that this means that they have a FAT16 file system.
>
>At any rate, when I try to mount them I see the following:
>
>[root@localhost /root]# mount /dev/hdc1 /mnt/zip
> hdc: hdc4
>/dev/hdc1: Success
> hdc: hdc4
> hdc: hdc4
>FAT bread failed
> hdc: hdc4
> hdc: hdc4
>FAT bread failed
>mount: you must specify the filesystem type
>
>I've tried specifying the filesystem like so:
>
>[root@localhost /root]# mount -t msdos /dev/hdc1 /mnt/zip
> hdc: hdc4
> hdc: hdc4
>FAT bread failed
>mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/hdc1,
> or too many mounted file systems
> hdc: hdc4
> (aren't you trying to mount an extended partition,
> instead of some logical partition inside?)
>
>Any idea why it keeps refering to hdc4, I would assum that there's only
>one partition on the zip drive?
>--
>Please delete what's between the Eric and Goforth in my e-mail address to
get
>my real e-mail address.
>
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert McConnell)
Subject: Re: computer literacy (was 'Linux viruses' or something)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 04:15:41 GMT
On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 04:40:11 GMT, "Binesh Bannerjee"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>You say it only takes a few hours to learn how to use an auto,
>but the extent to which you talk about "learning to use an auto"
>is precisely the amount to which the average computer user wants
>to learn about their computer. I think it only takes a few hours
>to learn how to use the windows interface, learn to use a browser,
>email and a wordprocessor. I'm _not_ pulling this out of my ass,
>my parents whom I've just set up with a computer, had _never_
>used a computer before, and now are just fine, after I simply
>showed them how to use them. Practice is required, just as it's
>required with a car.
If all you are going to do is data entry, and typing letters is merely
data entry, then a few hours is enough. If you only want this much,
you probably don't even need a computer. Web-TV and a Smith-Corona
word processor will give you everything you listed for a lot less
money and effort than any computer on the market today. To waste a
computer for these functions is like buying a Cadillac just to drive
300 yards to the post office once a day.
The real beauty of the computer is that you can start there and then
expand into video, midi, mp3, and many other capabilities, all without
hardly scratching the surface of its potential. But you have to spend
time and energy on each of these new functions to learn how to use
them. Yes, each of these is a new function that is added to the system
as desired. It's about like adding wings and a propellor to the family
car to allow it to maneuver over obsticles.
>The real comparison here would be as _us_ being the mechanics
>and the users being the drivers. But, you say the drivers don't
>need to know that much, but computer users should be the equivalent
>of mechanics. You're using different standards for cars and computers.
As a system designer and programmer, I am not only a mechanic, but
also a tool and die maker. My knowledge of computers goes far beyond
what 99% of users will ever need. However, 80% of those users will
never even need to know how to install an application or printer
driver because their IT department or hardware store will do it all
for them. Just like 80% of auto users will never take wrench in hand
to change their oil. If these users are happy being data entry clerks,
then so be it. If they want to expand their horizons, they need to dig
in and learn more. Just as a little knowledge of mechanics allows kids
to tinker with old cars and turn them into hotrods, a little focused
knowledge about computers can transform them from a word processing
appliance to a very powerful set of tools.
>: As a result, most "users" are actually only following a set of rote
>: instructions prepared by someone who understands what the tool is
>: doing. These basic "users" are exactly like the data entry clerks they
>: were supposed to replace, until they take the time to understand what
>: they are doing and how the computer is actually being used. Only those
>: few that make a real effort to expand their horizons will move beyond
>: the point of being appliance users, or data entry clerks.
>
>Yes, EXACTLY like drivers. Most of them, (myself included) know
>NOTHING at all about the difference between a carburetor(sp?) and
>a radiator, just as I wouldn't expect that most users would know
>the difference between a buffer overflow (or for that matter, what
>a buffer is even) and a trojan horse.
So you are saying that it is not necessary to learn how to protect
your computer from virus attacks, cracker attacks over your internet
connection or malicious email attachments? I suppose if you have
nothing of value on the machine and don't care if it gets wiped out or
published on someone's web site, that may be true. But many people
would disagree, and since the virus detection applications are always
playing catchup with the virus creators, it is necessary to find out
how to protect yourself rather than depend on those "mechanics".
>And, why MUST everyone be forced to "move beyond being appliance users"??
The computer is as far beyond being an appliance as a Lincoln is
beyond a go-cart. Nobody is being forced to move anywhere, but making
that move can have a powerful impact on your income. I am much better
off making $2x an hour as a programmer than I was making $1x an hour
doing data entry (writing field service manuals for NCR).
>How many scientists do you think use computers but never move beyond
>say "Mathematica" or "Matlab" etc? They're "data entry clerks?" This
>is part of the typical "I'm a programmer/Linux user, and I'm hot shit"
>syndrome... Guess what, it's a big world, and each of us chooses what
>we want to specialize in. Some people fill up their grey matter with
>information on how to write device drivers. Others fill it up with
>information about how best to reconcile quantum mechanics with relativity.
>Others fill it up with how exactly one goes about squeezing out the
>last few horses out of an old Corvette engine. Suggesting that everyone
>who in the course of whatever has to USE a computer and doesn't
>bother taking the time to learn about underlying details is small,
>petty and indicates that you obviously overestimate the extent
>of your own knowledge. Would you say that because Stephen Hawking
>chooses not to spend his time figuring out how his machine works,
>and instead USES his machine to communicate how the universe works,
>he is therefore a "data entry clerk"??
The mathmaticians, physicists, etc. that I know have all gone far
beyond Matlab, et al. Most of them are programmers themselves because
they have discovered that the machine is much more useful and flexible
if you can design your own tools instead of depending on someone else.
Those that don't have time to write their own programs hire someone
that can and hand them the specifications. Generalized tools are only
used until they understand the problem well enough to design more
specific tools. But forget Linux or Windows, most of them are using
Sparcstations or equvalent with full time connections to
supercomputers.
My daughter is an accountant. To her, a spreadsheet is a tool, the
computer is the machine that tool runs on. She designs applications,
writes macros, and enters data. It took her two years to learn how to
use that tool effectively, and now it is second nature to her. She can
put together an application in a few minutes that used to take her
several days. She is still a user, but she has stepped beyond the
entry clerk stage to the point of being a journeyman mechanic. She now
modifies the tool to fit her needs instead of depending on someone
else to define and make those modifications for her. There are several
people she works with that have not made that move. I suspect she will
have many more oportunities than they will even though she is younger
and less experienced than they are. I also suspect she is going to
find and learn to use many other tools over the years that just happen
to run on that same computer.
Mr. Hawking's mind is much more powerful than any computer ever
constructed, and he is one of the few people on this earth that has
learned how to effectively tap into that power. I suspect the only
computers he uses are the ones that provide him with speach and data
storage, and he has some very talented help making them do what he
needs.
>Binesh Bannerjee
Bob McConnell
N2SPP
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