Linux-Misc Digest #505, Volume #26 Sat, 9 Dec 00 22:13:02 EST
Contents:
Linuxgruven is Deceptive in their Ad ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Backup solution at Linux (Robert Jones)
Re: Need Help installing Linux Please! (Stanislaw Flatto)
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Linuxgruven is Deceptive in their Ad
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 01:30:54 GMT
Linuxgruven is Deceptive in their Newspaper Ad
I checked into a job opportunity with
linuxgruven a few weeks ago. I was not 'actively'
seeking employment at the time. I did this solely
based upon a fellow employee(where I currently
work) who said he saw an ad in the newspaper that
said $45K /yr, entry-level position, training for
qualified applicants. There was a little more to
the ad, but not much. It was a pretty small ad.
I'm not quoting the ad because I don't have it
laying around anymore, but it may have said,
training 'available' for qualified applicants in
the ad, instead of just training for qualified
applicants. Whatever. The fellow employee that
gave me the ad said that he called the 888 toll
free number and inquired about the job and was
told that it involved using Linux, and since he
didn't know anything about using it but knew that
I liked Linux he was giving me the ad in case I
wanted to check it out.
I said Oh Yeah! I'll call! I was excited
at the sound of the opportunity. I would love
nothing more than to get a job implementing,
working with and using Linux. So I called. The
person on the other end asked me a couple
questions, and then gave me a number to call to
set up an appointment for an interview here in
Denver. I called the number and set up a time to
come in. I then told my current employer that I
needed the first part of that day off to go to a
dentist appointment(guess you could say that's a
little deception of my own). Then I went about
updating my resume.
The day of the interview arrived and I
went to the address, a very nice office building
in DTC here in Denver. I went into the office
suite, which was also very nice. Secretaries were
there at the front desk answering the phone
with,"Linuxgruven". A gentleman came in to
interview me. The interview lasted a while and
went very well I thought. He said a few times
that you have to be Linux certified to get the
job, but it's fairly hard to find people because
the 'talent pool' of people with Linux skills is
really shallow. Then he said
Linuxgruven 'subsidizes' the cost of the
schooling and 'reimburses' you after you have
worked for them for a year. He said the reason
you have to be certified is to make sure you know
how to do your job in the field professionally,
and even though I may currently have good Linux
skills they may not be up to a professional
level. But, if I thought that my skills were good
enough to pass the tests that I could just go
ahead and take the tests, get the certification,
thereby skipping the month of school. I agreed
that even though I have a few years of experience
of using Linux on my own, my skills probably
weren't up to the par of a professional level and
I would feel more comfortable about taking the
tests if I went through the training/schooling
first. Therefore I would plan on going through
the month of schooling before taking the tests. I
took what the interviewer said about subsidizing
the cost of schooling to mean that they paid for
the schooling as long as you work for them for a
year, but if you leave before a year is up then
you owe them the cost of the schooling. My
current employer has a deal where they want to
help you get certified(for these applications
called 'Loadrunner' and 'Winrunner' -> www.merc-
int.com) by covering the cost of certification.
You sign a contract that says you won't leave the
company for three months after you receive the
certification. If you do, then you owe them the
$500 for the cost of the certification, and it
would come out of your last check, I suppose. But
you get/earn the certification on your own time
after work, and it supposedly takes a few months
and a total of 160 hours. But I know for a fact
with my current employer that nothing comes out
of your own pocket to actually get the
certificate in your hand. I told the interviewer
that I had considered getting Linux certified
before, but it costs thousands of dollars. He did
mention that the tests cost $400(four of them
$100 each). The interviewer never once mentioned
that I would need $2,500 for the schooling or the
$400 to take the tests to come out of my own
pocket. He never even mentioned anything about
$2,500 at all. I didn't ask any real questions
about the details of the cost of schooling or
taking the tests because he kept making it sound
like it would all be covered by Linuxgruven, as
long I worked for them for a year after getting
certified.
I am in the position that I could quit my
job in order to totally devote my time to the
month training/schooling, as long as the cost of
it was covered, and I knew that I was going to be
making $45k/year after the month was over. I then
took the aptitude test that linuxgruven gives
applicants/potential employees to take. I was
told that I would be called with the results of
the aptitude test the following day. This was on
a Thursday, and the school was supposed to start
in about 10 ten days. I told the interviewer that
I would need to know that I can and am going to
get signed up for this as quickly as possible, so
that I could give some notice to my current
employer. I even mentioned that if I gave notice
tomorrow that it wouldn't be that much of a
notice because we were only working a three day
week next week(next week was Thanksgiving and my
current employer was not only giving us Thursday
off, but Friday as well) and the school was
supposed to start the Monday following
Thanksgiving weekend. Since the interviewer told
me that he would call me the next day, I was
pretty disappointed that I received no call. I
was certain I did pretty darn good on the
aptitude test and that the interview went very
well. I figured that maybe he would call on
Monday, and be kinda apologetic about it. Sure
enough! I came home on Monday during my lunch
break and there was a message from him saying he
was sorry he didn't get back to me on last Friday
but that I did real good on the aptitude test and
he wanted me to call. So I called him back. He
said he was wanted to go ahead and get me signed
up for the school and wondered if I had any
questions. I said I just wanted to know if there
were any further requirements to getting the job.
He re-iterated that you have to be certified, and
then told me that you have to have $400 to take
the tests and $2,500 for the school. I
said "what?" I could come up with $400 for the
tests but I do not have $2,500. He said, oh I was
pretty certain I talked about you having to pay
for the certification when you were here. I said
no, I'm pretty certain you didn't and I thought
linuxgruven covered the cost of it as long as you
worked for them for a year. He said no, we
reimburse you the cost of the school and the
tests after a year. I said "Oh, I see". I then
said, well, like I said, I don't have $2,500, but
maybe I could get a loan. You see, I was excited
by the supposed fact that this supposed job paid
more than I have ever made, much more, and that
it was working with Linux. I was equally excited
by both factors. And I thought perhaps I had been
a little confused on the
subsidizing/reimbursement deal, perhaps. If so
though, I thought only because the interviewer
did not make it at all clear during the actual
interview and actually led you to believe that
the school would be covered(or subsidized) by
linuxgruven for a year, let alone the ad in the
paper. I mean what could he have been thinking
when I said, "that I had considered getting Linux
certified before, but it costs thousands of
dollars". That I had come to Linuxgruven because
I suddenly had a few thousand dollars in my
pocket, or that I was already Linux certified, of
which the ad in neither the paper nor anyone I
talked with on the phone mentioned anything
about? Through this whole thing he never once
tried to say that I should have know up front
that this was going to cost some money(be it
$2,900 for the school and tests, or $400 to just
take the tests route) or be Linux certified, in
order to receive the 'training for qualified
applicants. That's because the ad doesn't say
that up front. Is it just me, or shouldn't it
have to say that up front?
But, I was determined to do what it took to get
the job, if I could, even though I think I was
beginning to realize how I had been deceived. I
already wasn't exactly happy that previously he
hadn't called me back the day he said he was
going to about the results of the aptitude test.
Anyway, I told him that I would call about
getting the money and get back to him. I called
my mom and told her what was happening and asked
for a loan. She seemed to think this might be a
scam and had a number of questions she wanted
answered before she would be willing to put up
the money. Like what is the name of this school
and how is it accredited, what is the phone
number of the school, ect. She said if you can
get him to fax me the info then ok. I called him
back again and asked him the questions and told
him that I needed the answers faxed to the given
number. He said ok, but the school is so new that
they just finished painting the walls there and
they did not have a phone in yet. I said ok...
well put that as the answer to that question, or,
if you can somehow find out what the phone number
will be once it's installed then put it on there
(there were more questions than this that my mom
wanted answered on there that I'm not listing
here, but you get the idea I hope). He said ok,
and that he send the fax that day. I said ok,
good, because I would sure like to give notice to
my current employer as soon as I can if I'm going
to do this. Nothing came that day. When I came
home during my lunch hour the following day,
there was a message on my answering machine from
the interviewer saying that he had lost the fax
number and needed me to give it to him again. I
called and got his voice mail and left him my
mom's fax number again. I couldn't help but
wonder why he hadn't called yesterday to say he
had lost the number, since yesterday was the day
he said he would send the fax. I was now looking
at giving my current employer hardly any notice
at all. The remainder of that day went by and the
next day came and went with still no fax from the
interviewer. The next day was Thanksgiving. The
interviewer was very professional, and seemed
knowledgeable during the actual interview. But
now, I considered the interviewers actions to be
tardy at the least, unprofessional may not be out
of line to say, at the most. The next day,
Friday, my mom had to work while I had it off. My
mom still did not receive any fax. That evening
around 8 PM, he calls. He said he was calling to
see if I was going to sign up for the school or
not. My mind has all kinds of stuff suddenly
flash through it. I said, well, here it is Friday
and you want to know if I'm going to go through
it. Well, I told you that I wanted to be a little
bit professional in giving my current employer
some notice(you'd think he's gotta respect that
somewhat) and my mom still hasn't received the
fax you said you would send. I'm not going to
walk into work on Monday and say goodbye, this is
the last you'll be seeing of me and my services.
He replied, Oh? You didn't get the fax? Well I
was calling on the assumption that you had
received the fax and was wondering why I hadn't
heard back from you. Well, I gave it to someone
else to send. I immediately said, Oh? So, you
gave it to someone else huh? I see. He said yeah,
I'll have to have a talk with(struggles for the
name for a second then says) what's-her-name
(that's what he ended up saying, literally) on
Monday. Then went on to say that he had called me
because there was one(I repeat, one) opening in
the class left, and that me and another
person ,which he called an 'alternate', that he
wanted to get in touch with us before the
deadline in case one of us were still interested.
I was a little more courteous for rest of the
conversation, and explained that I saw that I
could order the self-study books for the SAIR/GNU
Linux certification(www.linuxcertification.com)
therefore I was considering getting the books,
studying them on my own time when I could, and
then just take the tests. He asked me to do him a
favor, to e-mail him the results of my tests. I
said OK(don't ask me why). The conversation
continued for a few more minutes. He ended it
with, "Do you have anymore questions?" I
said, "No, have a Happy Thanksgiving weekend."
Now I feel like I cannot trust employment ads I
see in the paper. I would like for someone at
Linuxgruven explain to me why I did not 'qualify'
for the training as an applicant. As far as I
know I was a 'qualified applicant'. Why then
can't I receive the available training that is
advertised in the paper? I feel I now have to ask
prospective employers if they require any
certifications or training that I am required to
pay for out of my own pocket in order to get the
job, before I am willing to set up an appointment
to go in for an interview. If they mention
anything like training or schooling is available,
then I will ask, "at what cost?" And even then,
the employer is going to need people badly
enough, or want me enough, that they will be
willing to interview me outside of normal weekday
business hours, because I am not going to go to
another job interview on the 'I have a dentist
appointment' ruse ever again. And by that I don't
mean that I will change it to 'I have a doctors
appointment'. Is it ok to ask your current
employer for time off 'to go on a job interview'?
I think not.
Well, to finally wrap this up, I would like to
say there are a couple of reasons I finally
decided to sit down and write about my experience
with Linuxgruven and their ad in the paper.
Because of a newsgroup letter someone posted
which I found by doing a search on discussions at
www.deja.com on the word Linuxgruven, and then a
banner ad on the web advertising "Linuxgruven" at
one of my favorite places to read Linux news,
linuxtoday.com. There were several posts
concerning Linuxgruven at deja.com but the one
mentioned above is my favorite and I would like
to include it below. It is from the newsgroup
alt.os.linux. The person talks about their
experience when they actually went in with a
check for $2,500. While reading it, keep in mind
that the interviewer told me 'he had called me
because there was one opening in the class left,
and that me and another person ,which he called
an 'alternate', that he wanted to get in touch
with us before the deadline in case one of us
were still interested'.
Thanks for taking the time to read this letter,
Jimmy Richards
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1647 S Oakland Ct
Aurora, CO 80012
(303)743-7983
linuxtoday.com Ad Link
http://netadsrv.iworld.com/event.ng/Type=click&Pro
fileID=1087&RunID=11764&AdID=7491&TagValues=194.22
2.313.572.579.619.915.961.1048&FamilyID=1&GroupID=
1&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.linuxgruven.com
i took the cert. class on the 27 of nov.i didnt
give the teacher/recruiter the check untill that
day. Just before class started he pulled me
aside and told me that you need to pay tuition
for the class. I handed him the check for
2,500.
He then said "Do you have any questions or
concerns about this class.
I said, "Not myself, but my family thinks its a
scam. In a week and a half my family and I have
called around talked to people at VA linux, also
talked to people at the BBB in St. Louis."
He explained all the problems that i had trying
to get infomation on Linuxgruven. And
said, "most of the infomation that you found was
inacurate"
after a short 5-10 min. discussion he sent me
into class. this is where it gets interesting!!!
There was a guy in there that had never touched a
linux machine in his life. and the other girl
spent the hour looking out the window starring
off into space. yep thats right do your math. 2
other people in the room. and myself, but not
for long. about an hour into the class(there was
no instructor, he wouldnt start class till he got
his lunch.),anyways the same person who
interveiwed me and taught the class, pulled me
aside again and said that, he wants me to go back
to go home and do more reaserch cause it sounds
like i am still skeptical about the whole thing.
He then handed me back my check and sent me
packing. Now he and Linuxgruven are going to pay
for this. Because i am going to write numerous
posts to several websites. and tell everyone
about this fiasco. if anybody needs to get
intouch with me please feel free to instant
message me or email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"David B. Henning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just wondering if anyone is familiar with
Linuxgruven. Had a job interview
> with them and would like any input.
>
> Thanks
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Robert Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Backup solution at Linux
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 20:05:33 -0600
Lee Allen wrote:
> >>>>> I think the best way, if you do not wish to purchase commercial
> >>>>> software such as BRU, is to use a shell script with find and cpio in
> >>>>> it. Have cron schedule it to run when you are asleep so it does not
> >>>>> get in your way and so you do not annoy it.
>
> This brings up a question I have been wanting to ask:
>
> What's wrong with tar?
I'm with you. I'm a lot less interested in the ease with which the backup is
made than with the ability to easily recover from a disaster. Everything I
need to restore from scratch is in my boot floppy, rescue floppy and in a
text file on a third floppy where I've put step-by-step instructions against
the possibility of 'choking'.
> I realize it can't do incremental backups. But I don't care: My
> entire system easily fits on a single DAT cartridge.
>
> I realize it doesn't keep track of which tape was used when & where &
> how. But again, I don't care, because my entire system fits on one
> tape. I just write the date on the tape.
>
> It probably wouldn't be the right solution for backing up a database
> that is actively being updated. But I put my system in single-user
> mode for the backup.
>
> Aside from these shortcomings, is there anything wrong with using tar
> to backup my Linux system to tape?
>
> -Lee Allen
--
Chance is perhaps the work of God when He did not want to sign.
-- Anatole France
7:36pm up 56 days, 14:03, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.02
------------------------------
From: Stanislaw Flatto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Need Help installing Linux Please!
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:39:32 +1100
Welcome to Linux-land!
Rodney Gray wrote:
> This is my first post in this news group. I have a unique situation and NO
> linux experience to help guide me through. I own a copy of TurboLinux
> Workstation 6.0. And would like to install it on my high performance
> machine. HOW!!!
>
> I want to install it as per following:
>
> (the best money can buy!)
>
WOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I want to thank anyone
> in advance for what ever help you can give me! Thanks!
>
> Regards,
> Rod
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> My time now is Dec, 9th at 4:20Mountain time (In the State of New Mexico,
> USA) PLEASE HELP ME!!!
What about reaching into the junk pile which every normal PC user has and
finding a 1G EIDE hd, putting on unused controller slot and "Bob's your uncle"?
And when you become semi-guru, like in 6 month time, do whatever.
HTH
Stanislaw.
Slak user from Ulladulla.
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Misc Digest
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