Ragi, I have missed your email style.
My argument is not that the Software Center is pointless. I actually recommend this program to less experienced computer users over Synaptic for the purpose of damage control with the hope that they will switch later on. My issue with Mark's last few choices is that he is replacing, at least in theory, good applications with less stable, simplistic, harder to use, poorly functioning idealism before the code is realized. Apt is is definitely what I use 99% of the time. Synaptic has its advantages, primarily for desktop user, over Apt wrt to convenience and usability, especially if you are one of those people that believes Desktops should cater to the lowest common denominator. The Software Center isn't even in the same league as Synaptic or APT and thus should not replacing anything. Furthermore, Synaptic is NOT that hard to use nor does it have a good GUI competitor. It sounds like you are saying Apt is useless on the desktop. If so, I disagree. The terminal is faster, easier for some people, and MORE "feature-rich" regardless of whether one has Unity installed or not. "I applaud the balls that Mark has to make decisions like this and I love how Ubuntu, little by little, keeps getting closer to a decent *Desktop* OS." I do not think either of us has a clear understanding of what makes a "decent" Desktop OS. "And yet, when he is looking for something as simple as a good e-mail client (with a GUI - like normal humans use), he runs into problems.".... (As usual, no offense Jeff) I still believe Jeff's email problem could be solved with a better exploration of the many email alternatives available to him. I do not think 347 email alternatives is a bad thing. There is something for everyone. Software for humans should be for all humans, not just cubical obsessed Desktop programmers or Window$ administrators. Chris... On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Paul Saenz <forensicneoph...@gmail.com> wrote: > I was going to say, "cheers, I couldn't have said it better" exactly, > but when i scrolled down, I notice that Dino beat me to it. What you > are saying is so true. If I want an app, before I to to synaptic or > use apt-get, I have to go online and research what is the best choice > in addition to asking this list for suggestions. When there's 8 apps > that can fulfill my need it can take 6 hours to research, or even days > just to find out that I don't like the way that software works which > is not an option. The Software Center has things categorized. Although > I havn't used it much, I know that I can just go there and grab > something I need and "boom" it's done. Also, when I have spare time, I > can try something new out for evaluation. > > Shuttleworth has chosen to make a new desktop disto. If anyone on the > list chooses to make a distro, whether desktop or server, then I'm not > going to complain about how they set it up! More power to them. <sorry > for the outdated, cheesy cliche'> If anyone can make a distro that > becomes as popular as Shuttleworth's, then I'll give them some serious > 'Kudos,' and possibly a cash donation. > > What strikes me as pointless about making the fact that Synaptic is > being axed out of the default install an issue is that if you want > synaptic, all you have to do is type apt-get install synaptic.... and > enter your password. Or get it from the Software Center. > > The purpose for computer information systems is not to make things > more difficult, but to organize information so that the achievement of > goals can be simplified. The point of the Software Center is > categorization, but it can be improved. To want to stick to the way it > is would kind of be ludicrous. An insistence to use older software > techniques that are not organized/categorized is paramount to a farmer > refusing to use a tractor instead of a horse driven plow. > > On the other hand, the problem I grapple with is that every browser > that I have tried hogs my cpu. My cpu jumps up to 80% +-, the screen > greys out, and I have to wait from 30 seconds to 3 or 4 minutes, while > my hard drive spins up to light speed, before I can use my browser > again. > > I'm not sure if this is a distro issue, since Ubuntu is the only > distro I use. It may be a lack of memory. I only have 512M. I suspect > that it could even be the fact that I have the wrong size swap > partition. I would even venture to guess that it may be an X issue. It > could even be a hardware issue. Nevertheless, when I open the same > browser in M$ XP on the same box, Firefox runs as light as a feather. > I can hardly tell it's there. I never remember the hard drive spinning > up. In Ubuntu the hard drive spins up simply as a result of typing > word into an email browser! > > This is really one of the bigger problems for the desktop. The browser > is definitely the primary use for personal desktop users. If it is > secondary in business desktops, the browser is definitely a major use. > I could dick around with the issues at hand, and there is a good > chance that I could solve the problem, but as others said before, I > don't have time for that. I just need it to work. Unless one becomes > an Uber linux geek, it doesn't pay, and that is not the direction I'm > going. So as for many, as myself, the concept of FOSS is great and has > many advantages that are very worth-wile so I'm sticking with it, but > it needs some serious improvement which is one thing that Shuttleworth > seems to be accomplishing. > > That's my view. > Which is subject to revision. > Paul > > On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Ragi Burhum <r...@burhum.com> wrote: >> So Mark Shuttleworth is a crackpot because he is trying to make the Desktop >> Linux experience better (i.e easier) for everyone? Couldn't disagree more. >> There is a reason why Ubuntu is so popular in contrast with other Linux >> distributions - it is because it is easier to use than other distributions >> (notice I didn't say more powerful, more secure, or any other thing - I said >> *easy*). >> Although at first glance both Synaptic and the Software Center interact as a >> frontend to apt, there are huge distinctions in their approach. Yes, as of >> today, functionally speaking, Synaptic is more feature-rich than Software >> Center. Heck, apt, is more powerful than either one. >> But, for a Desktop, that doesn't matter at all. >> There is one lesson that took me several years to learn. No I didn't learn >> it during my undergrad or grad CS courses or after a decade of programming >> as a career. It is so obvious, I should be embarrassed that it took me so >> long to really grasp... most people use computers as a means to an end and >> not as an end itself. >> You mentioned Jeff. He definitely an expert Linux user and has been using >> computers for longer than some of us have been alive (I mean it as a >> complement by the way). And yet, when he is looking for something as simple >> as a good e-mail client (with a GUI - like normal humans use), he runs into >> problems. Let me search for email on apt: >> ubuntu@ip-10-123-129-144:~$ apt-cache search email |wc -l >> 347 >> ubuntu@ip-10-123-129-144: >> 347 options. Some jewels like "echolot - Pinger for anonymous remailers such >> as Mixmaster" or "chiark-scripts - chiark system administration scripts". Do >> I use apt? Hell yes! All the time. But for a Linux *Desktop* experience this >> is useless. Synaptic returns the same stuff, except that it is in a GUI - >> which once again is not good enough for desktop experience. Contrast that >> with the changes that are happening on Software Center, where there are >> things like ratings. Yes, those stupid stars will actually matter - because >> humans like to rate things they either *really love* or *really hate*. A >> very basic crowdsourcing model that allows me to try the packages in a >> certain order before having to become an expert in Linux e-mail clients. >> Software for humans. >> Some of us, just want the stupid GUI and compiler and e-mail client and chat >> client and whatever else to *just work* so we can go out and code useful >> stuff that will help people get their things done. I want Mercurial to work >> so I can commit to my open source projects - I don't want to compile >> Mercurial. Huge difference. I want to know which diff tool people use the >> most so I can pick that and actually merge conflicting code changes. I don't >> want to have to filter through 300 options, and become the expert of diff >> tools first. Maybe at some point I would want to, but definitely not for >> every piece of software that will be installed in my Desktop. >> I applaud the balls that Mark has to make decisions like this and I love how >> Ubuntu, little by little, keeps getting closer to a decent *Desktop* OS. If >> people don't like it, there are plenty of distributions out there that will >> keep having the same look and feel that suits you. Heck, you can even go and >> compile your kernel, windows manager and whatever else scratch. >> - Ragi >>> >>> From: Chris Penn <cantorm...@gmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [LinuxUsers] Synaptic Dropped From Ubuntu 11.10 >>> To: SoCal LUG Users List <linuxusers@socallinux.org> >>> Message-ID: <banlktimwo6yd_1zbkqg95md4ry3hipl...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> I think most people that understand the power of anything are gonna >>> use apt most of the time. Sometimes people have a need for a gui, for >>> whatever reason, and the Software Center is not a replacement for >>> Synaptic in this capacity. >>> >>> Chris... >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 11:21 PM, Mark Holmquist <marktrac...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >> Unexpectedly, Canonical has decided that it is time for the Software >>> >> Center to replace Synaptic as well. So, in the next daily build of >>> >> Ubuntu 11.10, Synaptic will no longer be installed by default. ?The >>> >> Software Center?!!! >>> > >>> > Brings to mind the GNOME 3 design choices: >>> > http://www.christoph-wickert.de/blog/2011/06/25/gnome-developer-quote-of-the-day/ >>> > >>> > Maybe Ubuntu 11.10 is not being developed for people who like a >>> > featureful package manager GUI.... >>> > >>> > Besides, most people who understand the power of Synaptic would probably >>> > be better off with gnome-terminal + apt-get anyway. >>> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> LinuxUsers mailing list >> LinuxUsers@socallinux.org >> http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers >> >> > _______________________________________________ > LinuxUsers mailing list > LinuxUsers@socallinux.org > http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers > -- "As we open our newspapers or watch our television screens, we seem to be continually assaulted by the fruits of Mankind's stupidity." -Roger Penrose _______________________________________________ LinuxUsers mailing list LinuxUsers@socallinux.org http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers
