At 11:18 AM -0400 6/26/2000, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
>
> > which is why I won't bother discussing that stuff on this list any
>> more. I'm tired of the close-minded intolerance.
>
>I'm tired of the spam and the attacks. Doubly so when a simple
>and proven method exists to take a big bite out of the problem.
A solution. Too bad some folks on this list treat it as the one and
only true solution. to put it bluntly, opt-out stuff exists, won't go
away, and when run properly works just fine. Too bad this list,
instead of being interested in trying to figure out what "properly
works" is and driving lists to do it that way, instead takes the
"it's icky" attitude. It's not icky, any more than HTML email or web
subscription systems are, two other emerging and vibrant parts fo the
email world all. And, funny, all three are things this list has
repeatedly attacked, rather than tried to figure out how to make it
work right.
if you guys want to live in the 80's, fine. That's your priviledge.
But please, understand I'm not willing to, and not interested in
sitting here and playing target to those that think that any opinion
they don't agree with is an excuse for attacks. Especially from
people who attack me without researching what's really going on first.
> > As opposed to the mailbomb attacks being carried out by the scripters
>> who simply implode a mailbox by sending out hundreds of validation
>> requests?
>
>Hmmm. I haven't seen *any* reports of such attacks; have you? (And if so,
>could you please give pointers? I'd like to see how this was carried out.)
check your logs. Check the warez and hotline worlds. There are good
scripts out there. no offense, Rich, but I'm out of the business of
trying to tell you folks how to run your list servers. But, believe
it or not, the slam attackers know about mailback validations, and
they've adapted their scripts. it doens't matter to them if they
implode a mailbox by mass-subscribing them or simply by blowing it up
with huge numbers of "info" and "subscribe" responses.... they don't
care, it still does what they want.
opt-in stuff only solves SOME of the problems in the e-mail world,
and I'm tired of listening to how it's the holy grail that solves
everything. it doesn't. and a badly run list server is a badly run
list server, period. it's not opt-in or opt-out that creates or
solves problems. it's "well run" or "badly run" that does. It's too
bad this list has chosen to focus on the perception that one tool in
the arsenal is the ONLY tool in the arsenal, and that the one problem
it solves is the only problem needing solutions.
There's a lot more going on in the email world than this list is
willing to deal with, so I've decided that to deal with those
problems, I'll have to go find some other group to work on them. This
one isn't open to it, having shown time and again many of you already
consider all of the problems solved. And I'm tired of trying to
convince you that the universe has changed out from under you. If you
want to sit in your own little part of the world, fine. Just
understand that I'm not willing to be forced to sit in there with
you, when there's so much else that is being done and needs doing.
Unlike some of you, I'm not telling anyone they should be doing
anything, I'm just disappointed that this group, which (for the most
part) I consider very knowledgable and a good resource, has chosen to
turn inward instead of reaching out. What is this list useful for
today? I've been really arguing with myself over that issue, since I
decided a while back that other resources are needed and I didn't
want to step on list-manager's toes when I create them (but -- if you
can' figure out where the toes are....).
There's a lot going on in the e-mail world. what hasn't any of it
been talked about here? Except to put it down or turn it into yet
another kneejerk diatribe against the two tools of the devil: opt-out
mail lists and html mail. It's very hard to have a technological
discussion on this list because it always gets sidetracked into the
same old same old. whic is too bad, because as companies adopt
opt-out mailings for enewsletters (as I do), HTML because their
customers demand it, enriched content and all of that other stuff,
standards of usage and acceptability are needed that can drive
organizations towards what's needed to do these things right, and
which tools ought to be used for what solutions.
But this group opted out long ago as a place to drive the emerging
standards and build the standards of acceptability. So I guess I'm
going to have to find some other place that is willing to deal with
the issues, and not simply whine about them.
So I guess you can say I'm opting out of discussing the issues that
I've found simply arne't feasible in this list. Those of you who are
interested in dealing iwth them constructively, talk to me privately
and we'll see about it. I'm tired of being a target, so I'm simply
going to quit trying to get this list to deal with issues it doesn't
want to deal with. We'll all be happier, I guess.
--
Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar
and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'"
