+1 Lodewijk, well said. Seems worthwhile to note that there could have possibly been a valuable lesson missed, but as far as determining exactly what the lesson is...that seems squarely in the court of the professionals and the folks with complete information. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Lodewijk <[email protected]> wrote: > What about letting Legal, CA/SS and tech figure that out among themselves? > Even with that 'policy' I imagine there are always exceptions possible > (i.e. a court order). Maybe this is one of them. I do agree with Rob that > it shouldn't be his job to figure out if this shouldbe one - legal is in a > much better position to determine that. > > Lodewijk > > 2016-06-20 23:39 GMT+02:00 Pine W <[email protected]>: > >> Hi Rob, >> >> The last time that we had major problems with a list scrub, that request >> also came through Legal. It did not go well. My understanding is that >> Community Advocacy (now Support and Safety) took the position that Legal >> should not have requested a list scrub, and it would not happen again. I >> think that Legal and Ops should consult with James before there is a change >> of practice. >> >> Thanks, >> Pine >> >> Pine >> On Jun 20, 2016 13:11, "Rob Halsell" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I've never been aware they had been halted, only that we have a fairly >>> high bar on what we remove from the lists. This is due to the many >>> concerns already raised on this thread, and in the past. They include (but >>> are not limited to) mailman routing downtime/delays, archive rebuilding >>> index changes, and the fact that once something is on the internet, its >>> never really gone. (Removal from archives doesn't mean removal from >>> archive mirrors or any actual emails.) While those concerns make the bar >>> quite high, they do not mean we simply don't remove data. >>> >>> If anyone is aware of documentation that states otherwise, please let me >>> know! The only documentation I am aware of is on wikitech: >>> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailman#Remove_a_message_from_the_mailing_list_archives >>> & >>> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Remove_a_message_from_mailing_list_archive >>> >>> Operations does not undergo list scrubs lightly, as it involves the >>> stopping of mail processing for lists, including rebuild time of affected >>> archives. In this case,the request was filtered through WMF legal and then >>> legal requested it from operations. This request was filtered by both the >>> legal department and operations management. >>> >>> I've requested that we delay the scrub until post Wikimania. I have not >>> received any feedback yet from legal regarding the timeline. I'll post >>> back to this list regarding the resolution of the schedule. >>> >>> I hope that helps clear things up! >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:41 PM, Richard Ames <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes.... we have been through this before and I thought resolved not to >>>> do it. >>>> >>>> It only draws attention to that which is 'scrubbed' as it still exists >>>> in many public places and invites the comparison of the still public >>>> source and the scrubbed source.... >>>> >>>> Richard. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 5:30 AM, Pine W <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > Hi Rob, >>>> > >>>> > I thought that privacy-related scrubs of mailing list archives had >>>> been >>>> > halted, given (1) the many problems that they have caused in the past >>>> and >>>> > (2) that once info is sent to a public list it is likely to be >>>> archived >>>> > publicly in places outside of WMF control and therefore the >>>> usefulness of >>>> > these wipes is doubtful. >>>> > >>>> > James, you and I have discussed this issue previously. Can you please >>>> > comment? >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > >>>> > Pine >>>> > >>>> > On Jun 20, 2016 09:38, "Rob Halsell" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> I already got a few messages pointing out that taking down the >>>> wikimania >>>> >> mailing list the week of folks traveling there may not be ideal for >>>> >> communication! >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm working with legal to see if I can push this request for scrub >>>> to next >>>> >> week. >>>> >> >>>> >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Rob Halsell <[email protected] >>>> > >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> List Admins, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Please note that I'll be stopping mailman on 2016-06-21 from 16:00 >>>> to >>>> >>> 18:00 UTC for some privacy scrubbing of list archives. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Unfortunately, mailman has to be stopped to prevent corruption >>>> during the >>>> >>> archive rebuild for the affected list(s). I hope not to use the >>>> full 2 hour >>>> >>> window, but cannot be certain. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Once the work ends and mailman is restarted, all unsent/queued >>>> messages >>>> >>> will be processed for delivery. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Work is documented on https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T138228 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Thanks, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- >>>> >>> Rob Halsell >>>> >>> Operations Engineer >>>> >>> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. >>>> >>> E-Mail: [email protected] >>>> >>> Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820 9C7E 75ED 14C7 0245 D22A >>>> >>> Office: 415.839.6885 x6620 >>>> >>> Fax: 415.882.0495 >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> Rob Halsell >>>> >> Operations Engineer >>>> >> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. >>>> >> E-Mail: [email protected] >>>> >> Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820 9C7E 75ED 14C7 0245 D22A >>>> >> Office: 415.839.6885 x6620 >>>> >> Fax: 415.882.0495 >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Listadmins mailing list >>>> >> [email protected] >>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Listadmins mailing list >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rob Halsell >>> Operations Engineer >>> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. >>> E-Mail: [email protected] >>> Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820 9C7E 75ED 14C7 >>> *0245 D22A*Office: 415.839.6885 x6620 >>> Fax: 415.882.0495 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Listadmins mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Listadmins mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Listadmins mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins > > -- Pete Forsyth Principal, Wiki Strategies [email protected] +1 503-383-9454 www.wikistrategies.net
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