Sounds good, thanks James. If we could do scrubs with little risk of bad side effects then I would be more supportive, but I have not-so-fond memories of what happened last time.
In the long term, I would like to move away from Mailman toward something like Discourse. It might make future suppressions straightforward. Pine On Jun 20, 2016 15:00, "James Alexander" <[email protected]> wrote: > It's already delayed, so we have time for that, I think we can assume "for > now" that it will happen after Wikimania unless something is said > otherwise. However the lawyers and I will be in Esino Lario together and > I'll chat with them about the specific case (which I am not familiar with). > > James (from plane to MXP which is just about to shut the door) > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 20, 2016, at 5:53 PM, Pete Forsyth <[email protected]> wrote: > > +1 Lodewijk, well said. Seems worthwhile to note that there could have > possibly been a valuable lesson missed, but as far as determining exactly > what the lesson is...that seems squarely in the court of the professionals > and the folks with complete information. > Pete > [[User:Peteforsyth]] > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Lodewijk <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> What about letting Legal, CA/SS and tech figure that out among >> themselves? Even with that 'policy' I imagine there are always exceptions >> possible (i.e. a court order). Maybe this is one of them. I do agree with >> Rob that it shouldn't be his job to figure out if this shouldbe one - legal >> is in a much better position to determine that. >> >> Lodewijk >> >> 2016-06-20 23:39 GMT+02:00 Pine W <[email protected]>: >> >>> Hi Rob, >>> >>> The last time that we had major problems with a list scrub, that request >>> also came through Legal. It did not go well. My understanding is that >>> Community Advocacy (now Support and Safety) took the position that Legal >>> should not have requested a list scrub, and it would not happen again. I >>> think that Legal and Ops should consult with James before there is a change >>> of practice. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Pine >>> >>> Pine >>> On Jun 20, 2016 13:11, "Rob Halsell" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I've never been aware they had been halted, only that we have a fairly >>>> high bar on what we remove from the lists. This is due to the many >>>> concerns already raised on this thread, and in the past. They include (but >>>> are not limited to) mailman routing downtime/delays, archive rebuilding >>>> index changes, and the fact that once something is on the internet, its >>>> never really gone. (Removal from archives doesn't mean removal from >>>> archive mirrors or any actual emails.) While those concerns make the bar >>>> quite high, they do not mean we simply don't remove data. >>>> >>>> If anyone is aware of documentation that states otherwise, please let >>>> me know! The only documentation I am aware of is on wikitech: >>>> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailman#Remove_a_message_from_the_mailing_list_archives >>>> & >>>> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Remove_a_message_from_mailing_list_archive >>>> >>>> Operations does not undergo list scrubs lightly, as it involves the >>>> stopping of mail processing for lists, including rebuild time of affected >>>> archives. In this case,the request was filtered through WMF legal and then >>>> legal requested it from operations. This request was filtered by both the >>>> legal department and operations management. >>>> >>>> I've requested that we delay the scrub until post Wikimania. I have >>>> not received any feedback yet from legal regarding the timeline. I'll post >>>> back to this list regarding the resolution of the schedule. >>>> >>>> I hope that helps clear things up! >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:41 PM, Richard Ames <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes.... we have been through this before and I thought resolved not to >>>>> do it. >>>>> >>>>> It only draws attention to that which is 'scrubbed' as it still exists >>>>> in many public places and invites the comparison of the still public >>>>> source and the scrubbed source.... >>>>> >>>>> Richard. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 5:30 AM, Pine W <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> > Hi Rob, >>>>> > >>>>> > I thought that privacy-related scrubs of mailing list archives had >>>>> been >>>>> > halted, given (1) the many problems that they have caused in the >>>>> past and >>>>> > (2) that once info is sent to a public list it is likely to be >>>>> archived >>>>> > publicly in places outside of WMF control and therefore the >>>>> usefulness of >>>>> > these wipes is doubtful. >>>>> > >>>>> > James, you and I have discussed this issue previously. Can you please >>>>> > comment? >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks, >>>>> > >>>>> > Pine >>>>> > >>>>> > On Jun 20, 2016 09:38, "Rob Halsell" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I already got a few messages pointing out that taking down the >>>>> wikimania >>>>> >> mailing list the week of folks traveling there may not be ideal for >>>>> >> communication! >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I'm working with legal to see if I can push this request for scrub >>>>> to next >>>>> >> week. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Rob Halsell < >>>>> [email protected]> >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> List Admins, >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Please note that I'll be stopping mailman on 2016-06-21 from 16:00 >>>>> to >>>>> >>> 18:00 UTC for some privacy scrubbing of list archives. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Unfortunately, mailman has to be stopped to prevent corruption >>>>> during the >>>>> >>> archive rebuild for the affected list(s). I hope not to use the >>>>> full 2 hour >>>>> >>> window, but cannot be certain. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Once the work ends and mailman is restarted, all unsent/queued >>>>> messages >>>>> >>> will be processed for delivery. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Work is documented on https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T138228 >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Thanks, >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> Rob Halsell >>>>> >>> Operations Engineer >>>>> >>> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. >>>>> >>> E-Mail: [email protected] >>>>> >>> Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820 9C7E 75ED 14C7 0245 >>>>> D22A >>>>> >>> Office: 415.839.6885 x6620 >>>>> >>> Fax: 415.882.0495 >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Rob Halsell >>>>> >> Operations Engineer >>>>> >> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. >>>>> >> E-Mail: [email protected] >>>>> >> Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820 9C7E 75ED 14C7 0245 D22A >>>>> >> Office: 415.839.6885 x6620 >>>>> >> Fax: 415.882.0495 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Listadmins mailing list >>>>> >> [email protected] >>>>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Listadmins mailing list >>>>> > [email protected] >>>>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rob Halsell >>>> Operations Engineer >>>> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. >>>> E-Mail: [email protected] >>>> Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820 9C7E 75ED 14C7 >>>> *0245 D22A*Office: 415.839.6885 x6620 >>>> Fax: 415.882.0495 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Listadmins mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Listadmins mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Listadmins mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins >> >> > > > -- > Pete Forsyth > Principal, Wiki Strategies > [email protected] > +1 503-383-9454 > www.wikistrategies.net > > _______________________________________________ > Listadmins mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins > > > _______________________________________________ > Listadmins mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins > >
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