Sorry I'm not from the chassis list... Also there are some Lithiums at about $1 ea for a 3.3V 850 mah cell on a
surplus site. Lets see that would be about 40 cells to get a 120V+ pack, at $40, then 18 packs to get about 16A at $720
Can you link to these? Some info to help you understand batteries (yes I've done my homework, and I know this dense, sorry about that). I'll also post this to http://www.visforvoltage.net: Lithium-ion Cobalt: -Can do about 2C max, i.e., your "pack" could do 32a -Have a relatively high internal resistance (when compared to lead-acid), this means a high voltage drop under load -Require a BMS (battery management system) to protect from over disharge, over charge, and discharge rate -Very dangerous if mistreated http://www.valence.com/battsafe.asp -Require a special charger designed to charge Lithium-ion cobalts -Have a limited life even if you don't cycle them -Survive about 300-400 100% DOD cycles -Can be charged quickly at 1C -Very high nominal energy density, energy density in real-world EV use unkown -Price is rapidly falling, but appears to be able to compete with lead-acid in real-world use when considering battery price alone. This does not include time & materials for pack construction, a BMS, special charger, and pack maintenance including finding bad cells and replacing them throughout pack life. -Power density is high, but batteries can not safely peak a high multiple of their rated capacity at only 2C. This means you need a high energy pack to get a lot of power. Lithium-ion A123 Systems -As these become more available they will likely be used a LOT for smaller PEVs (personal electric vehicles) -Do your own research http://www.a123systems.com/html/technology.html -Not a lot is know of them in real-world use for EVs -Price is very high at this point. Consider buying Drill packs from ebay. Additionally they will have the BMS installed. -Much safer, longer life, more power, less energy, and lower nominal voltage than lithium-ion cobalt, but still very high energy density Valence Lithium-ion -Longer life than cobalt lithium-ion -Very expensive -Do your own research: http://www.valence.com -Designed to be integrated into lead-acid applications. Can be charged from lead-acid chargers (huge advantage) -Lower energy density than cobalt -Low power density -Come with integrated BMS (another huge advantage) NiMH/NiCad: -Also need a BMS, especially in a large pack -Need a special charger designed to charge NiMH or NiCad -Safer than Li-ion under abuse -NiMH survive about 300-1000 100% DOD cycles to 80% capacity depending on discharge/charge rate, quality of battery, heat, if they are used with a BMS, ect. -Can usually last much longer than the above # of cycles with reduced capacity, if they are treated well, i.e., NiMH might last 1500 cycles to 60% capacity -NiCad can survive 2x or more as long as NiMH if they are treated well -Most NiMH/NiCad don't last very long in real-world use because they are used without a BMS and over charged/disharged -In general lower internal resistance than lithium-ion, but still not very good in large cells (D & F) -Not effected by cold temperature nearly as much as lead-acid -Efficiency is poor 66% for NiMH, a little better for NiCad depending on charge rate -SOC drops quickly, 30%/month, however they can sit in a discharged state okay -Maintain voltage well throughout discharge cycle -Energy density in EV use varies depending on discharge rate and internal resistance: ~20whrs/lb for NiCad, 25-30 for NiMH -May be less expensive in real-world use considering their longer life than lead-acid when considering battery price alone. This does not include time & materials for pack construction, a BMS, special charger, and maintenance to find bad cells in pack throughout its life -Power density varies a lot depending on cell internal resistance, and may be good for larger D and F cells, and very good for smaller sub-C cells (those generally used in power tools). -Some can peak a high multiple of their rated capacity while other cells can not. Lead-acid VRLA (valve regulated lead-acid) AGM (absorbed glass matt): -Low internal resistance, low voltage drop -Need special charger designed for lead-acid -Require battery balancing of some type, usually done by battery regulators (much less complex & cheaper than a BMS), during charging -Cells appear to be "matched" in capacity much better in production than those of NiMH/NiCad. They also appear to very in capacity less than NiMH/NiCad throughout their life. -Survive 300 100% DOD cycles to 80% capacity, Enersys may survive another 100 or so. After this, available capacity drops very quickly with cycles. -No. of cycles vary more or less linear with DOD, i.e. 600 cycles at 50% DOD. However, appear to have a slight to more significant advantage with lower % DOD, depending on DOD, manufacturer, and type. There seems to be no "sweet spot" DOD like with flooded lead-acid, instead they always appear to offer more life the lower the DOD cycles -Effected more by cold weather than NiMH/NiCad -Likely the safest batteries available. -Don't require maintenance of any sort, other than checking the terminal bolt tightness -On the flip side to how they are effected by cold, if you live in a hot climate and/or heat the batteries via fast charging they can provide significantly more energy/power -Can be used in any orientation as opposed to flooded lead-acid. This means they can be shipped via UPS, Fedex, ect. -Verry efficient, as high as 95% depending on charge/discharge rate. -Can sit a long time without significant loss in SOC (state of charge) -Maintain voltage well throughout discharge cycle, except voltage drops more sooner than NiMH/NiCad -Must be charged after use. Can sit discharged, but they will sulfate, and this can shorten life (depending on how often, how deeply discharged) -Energy density in EV use (this is not the nominal energy density!) is about 10 whrs/lb, might be little higher drained slowly, and slightly lower if drained very quickly. -More resistant to vibration than flooded lead-acid -Contain a catalyst to recombine hydrogen/oxygen during charging, this means they rarely vent hydrogen, and are safer than flooded lead-acid -Are 2-3x cost of flooded lead-acid -Power density is good -Can generally peak a very high multiple of their rated capacity Lead-acid flooded deep cycle (golf cart, semi-industrial, not marine or starter) -Poor internal resistance, high voltage drop -400+ 100% discharge cycles, capacity drops rapidly after this -Appear to have a "sweet spot" DOD for maximum life. Some say this might be about 50% DOD, i.e., if you always charge them after 20% DOD than you will get less life than waiting until they are at 50% DOD. -Efficiency is low at 70% -Vent hydrogen when charged, must be in well ventilated area -Can spray acid when shorted/discharged too fast, or charged too fast. -Must be kept upright, cannot be shipped via UPS, Fedex, ect. -Require checking acid level & adding water. -Acid eats clothing, meaning floodeds are a PITA to work around -Cheapest battery type -They tend to smell -Usually balanced by occasionally purposefully overcharging at a low rate. They will benefit from battery regulators nonetheless. -Do not maintain nominal voltage well through discharge cycle, and tend to really "sag" in voltage the last 30% SOC -Energy density in EV use varies depending on discharge rate, can be quite low <10 whrs/lb if drained fast, up to >15 whrs/lb if drained more slowly. This makes them much more suitable for less-demanding EVs such as forklifts and golf carts. -Power density is low -Can generally peak ~5C Thats about all I know. In general much more is known about lead-acid in EV use than other types of batteries. Some things are not well established, or I just need to find more info about: -How do lithium-ion handle vibration when compared to lead-acid at a cellular level? How about at a larger level, i.e., how reliable will the cell interconnects be? -What will happen if a lithium-ion battery is punctured and/or exposed to high heat? Will it explode and cause the rest of the cells to explode as well? -If lithium-ion are shorted, will they explode, and how will they explode? -How are lithium-ion effected by temperature? Will high external temperature in combination with high internal temperature caused by rapid charge/discharge adversely effect life/safety? -How reliable will a large BMS be constructed to monitor thousands of cells? How likely is a catastrophic failure causing battery explosion? -How likely is an internal short in the advent of an accident of a large thousand plus cell pack? Will this cause explosion, and how quickly from the short until explosion? -Where do you take hundreds of pounds of NiMH/NiCad/Lithium-ion to have them recycled/disposed of properly, and how much will this cost? (Please don't throw them in the garbage) -How likely are individual cell failures, and how will this probability change through the life of the pack? -What will happen at the end-of-life? Will most cells fail at nearly the same time, or will this vary considerably? -How do you design a large battery pack allowing easy replacement of bad cells? -Does temperature effect sealed lead-acid more than flooded lead-acid? -Discharge may cause considerable rise in temperature of NiMH/NiCad/Lithium-ion. Will they need to sit a while before charging? Will a cooling system be required? -Can a cheap constant voltage or constant current charger be constructed with a temperature cutoff for NiMH/NiCad which still allows for a fair number of cycles? -How much energy must be left in NiMH/NiCad/lithium-ion packs in order to prevent taking the voltage too low to possibly cause cell reversal? Will this adversely effect capacity? How will this change throughout the pack life? A few additional things to consider: -With a lead-acid system a battery replacement is easy. If you construction your own pack from cells of NiMH/NiCad/Lithium ion, than you will have to construction a new pack for each replacement. -NiMH/NiCad/Lithium-ion with tabs may have poor quality connections at the joint to the tab, which may not handle high current, and fail under vibration -A BMS system may cost as much as the price of the cells for NiMH/NiCad/Lithium-ion -A charger for pack of large cells will need to be custom made (as will a BMS), and as such will not be as reliable as chargers/battery regulators that have been on the market for lead-acid Known sources for batteries: NiMH/NiCad Cheap Generic(low quality): http://www.all-battery.com http://www.batteryspace.com http://www.powerstream.com SAFT (high quality NiMH/NiCad) http://www.batterystore.com Panasonic/Sanyo (good quality) http://www.digikey.com Sealed Lead Acid B&B Batteries (good quality, good power) http://www.digikey.com http://www.electricrider.com http://www.zbattery.com http://www.powerstream.com Enersys (Odyssey, Cyclon, Genesis) (Very high quality & Power) http://www.gotbatteries.com/ http://www.batterymart.com/ Exide 34XCD (Very high power) http://www.remybattery.com/ Optima (Very high power) http://stores.ebay.com/Bargain-Brothers-Electronics http://www.remybattery.com/ Battery Regulators (Powercheq recommended) http://www.evsource.com/ Flooded lead-acid Trojan recommended http://www.trojanbatteries.com check with local battery supplier Lithium-ion Cobalt http://www.batteryspace.com http://www.all-battery.com http://www.powerstream.com Lithium-ion Cobalt BMS/Chargers http://www.batteryspace.com http://www.all-battery.com Lithium-ion A123 http://www.ebay.com (search for lithium-ion Dewalt packs) http://www.a123systems.com/html/home.html Valence Lithium-ion http://www.valence.com/ This is not a complete list or guide. I tried to cover the most practical information, including the most promising battery technologies. There are lots and lots of other battery technologies. In addition, this guide only covers batteries for energy storage, and does not include other technologies for potential energy storage (including fuel cells, flywheels, electrostatic (capacitors), ect.), or energy transfer (induction, electromagnetic, ect), or energy harnessing devices (solar cells, wind generators, ect) which may become practical for EV use.
