Thank you Charles for all the info. On insightcentral.net (for the Honda Insight) there was a discussion about NiMH batteries and one of the members were saying that the whole NiMH patent situation is not related to the oil companies, and instead it is entirely the fault of the market.
Of course, it cannot entirely be the oil companies fault, the same way it cannot entirely be the car buying public's fault; it lies somewhere in between. However, I'd say the fault falls more onto the oil companies than the car buying public... :) Is it okay if I share your info onto Insightcentral.net? Can I copy and paste it even? On 4/24/08, Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One additional, very important point I should make on this -- relating to > the requirement of having the requisite track record of demonstrated > technical capability and experience to be able to competently integrate > these batteries into a conversion, before GoldPeak would consider allowing > someone to be in on a group-buy or piggyback on a larger commercial deal -- > is that if you are planning to use a Manzanita Micro charger or any of the > other popular "hobbyist-gear" chargers, you can stop right there and just > forget about using NiMH, because those hobbyist-gear chargers are not > capable of competently charging NiMH. You will need a "professional-gear" > OEM-quality charger that is both programmable, with multi-step, -stage, and > -cycle algorithms, and also CAN-controllable with multiple feedbacks, > including both voltage and temperature feedback from each module. One such > charger is the Brusa, but that now costs around $19,000 for the 10kW > version. Otherwise, one has to arrange for another, suitable, programmable, > CAN-controllable charger that would be acceptable and competently charge > NiMH. There are others out there that are available to OEMs but not to > individuals, I believe. > > There are also very strict requirements for the Thermal Management System > (TMS) and how it must be constructed to optimize the thermodynamics and > cooling of the batteries, which are definitely exothermic, especially at the > top of the charge. > > Using GoldPeak large-format NiMH batteries would make a very nice, > high-quality conversion or kitcar EV with a proven 10-15 year / 200,000 mile > battery life, but it cannot be done on the cheap. It would definitely be > a very high-budget conversion or kitcar EV. > > Charles Whalen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "FLEAA Mailing List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > The only place we can get them is from GoldPeak. I know and speak with > GoldPeak's Chairman and have had an intensive series of meetings with > GoldPeak's Chief Battery Engineer (of 30 years). I have also signed an NDA > with them, which I believe they would require of anyone before they would > give you much information about their batteries, as they don't publish any > detailed specs or information about their batteries on their website. > > What you asking is something that I have been working on for a year now and > am continuing to pursue. It takes a lot of work and deal-making, bringing > people together and trying to sell large commercial interests on the > advantages of NiMH batteries, which some are largely ignorant of and have no > experience with, unlike myself. This all takes time. We would have to > piggyback on larger commercial volumes of much bigger players than > ourselves. That's the only way we will ever be able to get these batteries. > It may be possible by early next year; that's probably at least how long it > will take this one particularly large commercial deal to come together. But > deep down, my own personal feeling -- knowing the parties involved and some > of the other battery options they're pursuing, and having brokered this > tentative deal myself -- is that I suspect there's probably only about a 20% > chance that this will happen. > > So I have already started to think about some other ways to try to generate > some volume through other channels, and even though it would likely be much > smaller volume, it might be just enough to do a deal with GoldPeak, given > what I know of their 18-year history with these batteries and what sorts of > volumes they've previously done. > > Getting back to the previous discussion in another, separate thread about > for-profit vs. not-for-profit status and motivations, I have already decided > that whichever way we can generate sufficient volume with GoldPeak for us to > get their batteries, either the former or the latter way I discussed above, > I would make such batteries available at one price -- the same price that I > would be getting, without any markup or commission for myself -- to anyone > who wants them and who, more importantly, has a track record of demonstrated > technical capability and experience to be able to competently integrate > these batteries into a conversion. (It won't help either GoldPeak or the > stellar reputation of NiMH batteries if someone ends up killing or degrading > GoldPeak's batteries due to their own lack of experience and competence. > GoldPeak has been quite clear about this in my conversations with them.) > > I'm not going to go into any more specifics about this in a public forum > like this, but if you want to meet with me in person, I'd be happy to > discuss more details on this up to the limits of what my NDA covers. I will > be at the Fort Pierce EV Rally this Saturday, April 26. > > Yes, Saft does have the battery on their website. Good luck getting it. > Many others have tried, including much larger commercial players. But hey, > keep trying. I'd be interested to learn whatever you find out. > > Best regards, > > Charles Whalen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "FLEAA Mailing List" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > Thanks for the grat info. So where can we get NiMH batteries for a > conversion? Is there anything? I tried today all day w/saft and left > messages before reading your email. They do have the battery on the site > though. > > Thanks > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:51:27 > To:"Florida EAA" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > Hi Joseph, > > Your understanding is not quite correct. > > GoldPeak has an unrestricted, permissive Ovonics license from 1991 that > allows it to sell large-format NiMH batteries (>10Ah) into the US market, > which was grandfathered upon Chevron's purchase of the patents around the > turn of the century. > > European battery manufacturers Saft and Varta both *had* (past-tense) > grandfathered Ovonics licenses that allowed them to sell large-format NiMH > (>10Ah) batteries in Europe only, but both companies voided the terms and > conditions of their licenses upon their acquisitions by an American battery > manufacturer, Johnson Controls of Milwaukee (in both cases), such that > neither of them can produce large-format NiMH batteries any longer, even for > the European market. (Note that that pdf you referenced is dated July 2005, > which predates Saft's acquisition by Johnson Controls. Try buying new 100Ah > NiMH batteries from Saft now and see what answer you get. Hint: I already > know the answer to that question, from several entities that have tried.) > > There are two companies, Electro Energy and Nilar, that have both developed > large-format bipolar NiMH batteries, but neither one of them is in > commercial production. Both companies are in clear violation of the Chevron > patent licensing rights, as the patents relate to the electrochemistry at > the cell level (which remains the same), not the modular construction. > But Chevron will not bother spending all the money and dedicating all the > legal resources that it takes to bring a patent infringement lawsuit (like > they did and won against Toyota and Panasonic, to the tune of $30 million) > against either one of these companies unless either one of them scores a > large-volume commercial OEM contract, ... which neither of them has done and > neither is expected to do, for exactly that reason. There is a guy in San > Diego operating out of his garage who is doing Prius plug-in hybrid > conversions using Nilar's NiMH batteries. As long as this remains a > backyard operation of very small volume, only several cars a year, this guy > will remain under the radar and Chevron won't waste their time with him and > with Nilar. But if it ever reaches large-volume OEM commercial volumes, > Chevron will sue for patent infringement and will win. Chevron's top > executives have said so, exactly that, in private conversations. > > Chevron's NiMH patents expire on December 31, 2014. > > Best regards, > > Charles Whalen > > > Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:38:06 -0400 > From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > As I understand, Chevron's patent control over large-format NiMH > batteries means that no other company but them can produce such > batteries. > > However, why does Saft sell high-capacity (100 Ah+) NiMH batteries? > http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/NHE_en.pdf > The pdf is dated July 2005. > > I've heard about new NiMH batteries that avoid patent troubles, such > as "bi-polar" NiMH batteries. > http://www.electroenergyinc.com/products/technicalpapers/BipolarNickel.pdf > > How long have these been around? > > > _______________________________________________ > Florida EAA mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.floridaeaa.org > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1395 - Release Date: 4/24/2008 > 7:24 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > Florida EAA mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.floridaeaa.org > _______________________________________________ Florida EAA mailing list [email protected] http://www.floridaeaa.org
