No worries, Charles. None of the info. you've posted on this thread has been transferred anywhere else, in any way, shape or form.
On 4/25/08, Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Andrew, > > I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time to continue this conversation > anymore. I am completely swamped and backlogged with emails, and I have > spent most of my day answering people's querries to me on this list. It's > now half past midnight, and at the rate I am backlogged, I doubt I will be > able to make it to the Fort Pierce EV Rally on Saturday. > > But I will give you the reason in a nutshell. If you or anyone else is > interested in the longer version of the reason, you are welcome to come to > the Fort Pierce EV Rally on Saturday (which, yes, I will still try to make > it to) and I will give you the full blown, longer version and elaboration of > this. > > I used to work in Japan, where I did business with many of the largest > Japanese corporations, including Toyota. The short answer to your question > is the unbelievably rigid, inflexible, stifling nature of Japanese corporate > culture and their "kiretsu" system, the unwritten rules of which completely > forbid what you just suggested; it is a taboo and unimaginable. It isn't > done and is just not possible. > > More on Saturday in Fort Pierce for anyone who is interested ... > > Charles Whalen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'Charles Whalen'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'FLEAA Mailing List'" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 12:07 AM > Subject: RE: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > Charles, > > OK, now I'm confused. > If Gold Peak still has the legal right to produce large format NiMH > batteries, why didn't Toyota just buy the batteries through them? > > Andrew > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Whalen > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:27 PM > To: FLEAA Mailing List; Joseph T. > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > Hi Joseph, > > Having been around the EV community and industry for quite some time, I have > a pretty good idea who that person is. There is principally one person, > quite well-known in fact, in the EV community who takes exactly that line, > and in exactly the same way that you expressed it. That person and the > vehemence and personal vindictiveness with which he takes that position has > been responsible for some of the ugliest, nastiest personal insults and > flames I have ever seen on any issue on the various EV lists. Having been > witness to it and the ugliness of it, I have no intention of provoking that > sort of response directed at me, nor do I have the time for this. > Therefore, I would respectfully request that you please do not cross-post my > comments to other lists. We have an open list here. Anyone who wants to is > free to join this list, and this list is not censored or moderated. > However, we will not tolerate that kind of personal abusiveness on this > list, and anyone who engages in it will be removed from the list. I myself > don't have time right now to monitor other lists, much less participate in > discussions on other lists; I can barely keep up with this FLEAA list as it > is. Therefore, I do not want my comments posted to a list where I cannot > monitor what is said about me, especially when I am likely to be personally > attacked in an abusive manner, given the very ugly past history on this > particular issue by the person in question to whom you are referring. > > Toyota executives who ran the RAV4-EV program confirm that the Chevron NiMH > patent infringement lawsuit against them, resulting in a $30 million > judgment that they and Panasonic had to pay to Chevron, is the very reason > that they were forced to stop producing the RAV4-EV and that they would have > continued to do so were it not for the loss of that lawsuit which required > them to stop making the batteries for the car. > > On the other hand, if you look at my last few posts on this subject -- > specifically those related to GoldPeak and how I have been working on trying > to make business deals to generate enough volume (i.e. > *demand*) to enable us to get some of their large-format NiMH batteries -- > it is entirely clear and self-evident that *demand* is obviously an integral > part of the equation. In any business, there are always two sides of the > market -- supply and demand. One *has* to look at and examine issues on > both sides. > > How one wants to divide up and attempt to quantify the various causes of the > current difficulty in obtaining large-format NiMH batteries between: a) > Chevron's control of the patents, patent licensing rights, and their > premeditated, very deliberate and clever suppression of this disruptive > technology (which their top executives admit to), b) demand issues, c) price > increases and volatility of nickel on world commodity markets, and d) other > factors, is an academic exercise that doesn't much interest me, nor one that > I have time for. These are complex business issues. Clearly it is "all of > the above", but I couldn't begin to try to quantify various shares of those > causes. Having said that, just given the statements of Chevron's own > executives as well as those of Toyota's executives, I think it is quite > clear that (a) has been an important and likely even a dominant factor. In > that sense, I think you and I are in agreement on that. > > Charles Whalen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "FLEAA Mailing List" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > Thank you Charles for all the info. > > On insightcentral.net (for the Honda Insight) there was a discussion > about NiMH batteries and one of the members were saying that the whole > NiMH patent situation is not related to the oil companies, and instead > it is entirely the fault of the market. > > Of course, it cannot entirely be the oil companies fault, the same way > it cannot entirely be the car buying public's fault; it lies somewhere > in between. However, I'd say the fault falls more onto the oil > companies than the car buying public... :) > > Is it okay if I share your info onto Insightcentral.net? Can I copy > and paste it even? > > > On 4/24/08, Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > One additional, very important point I should make on this -- relating to > > the requirement of having the requisite track record of demonstrated > > technical capability and experience to be able to competently integrate > > these batteries into a conversion, before GoldPeak would consider allowing > > someone to be in on a group-buy or piggyback on a larger commercial > > deal -- > > is that if you are planning to use a Manzanita Micro charger or any of the > > other popular "hobbyist-gear" chargers, you can stop right there and just > > forget about using NiMH, because those hobbyist-gear chargers are not > > capable of competently charging NiMH. You will need a "professional-gear" > > OEM-quality charger that is both programmable, with multi-step, -stage, > > and > > -cycle algorithms, and also CAN-controllable with multiple feedbacks, > > including both voltage and temperature feedback from each module. One > > such > > charger is the Brusa, but that now costs around $19,000 for the 10kW > > version. Otherwise, one has to arrange for another, suitable, > > programmable, > > CAN-controllable charger that would be acceptable and competently charge > > NiMH. There are others out there that are available to OEMs but not to > > individuals, I believe. > > > > There are also very strict requirements for the Thermal Management System > > (TMS) and how it must be constructed to optimize the thermodynamics and > > cooling of the batteries, which are definitely exothermic, especially at > > the > > top of the charge. > > > > Using GoldPeak large-format NiMH batteries would make a very nice, > > high-quality conversion or kitcar EV with a proven 10-15 year / 200,000 > > mile > > battery life, but it cannot be done on the cheap. It would definitely be > > a very high-budget conversion or kitcar EV. > > > > Charles Whalen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "FLEAA Mailing List" <[email protected]> > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > > > The only place we can get them is from GoldPeak. I know and speak with > > GoldPeak's Chairman and have had an intensive series of meetings with > > GoldPeak's Chief Battery Engineer (of 30 years). I have also signed an > > NDA > > with them, which I believe they would require of anyone before they would > > give you much information about their batteries, as they don't publish any > > detailed specs or information about their batteries on their website. > > > > What you asking is something that I have been working on for a year now > > and > > am continuing to pursue. It takes a lot of work and deal-making, bringing > > people together and trying to sell large commercial interests on the > > advantages of NiMH batteries, which some are largely ignorant of and have > > no > > experience with, unlike myself. This all takes time. We would have to > > piggyback on larger commercial volumes of much bigger players than > > ourselves. That's the only way we will ever be able to get these > > batteries. > > It may be possible by early next year; that's probably at least how long > > it > > will take this one particularly large commercial deal to come together. > > But > > deep down, my own personal feeling -- knowing the parties involved and > > some > > of the other battery options they're pursuing, and having brokered this > > tentative deal myself -- is that I suspect there's probably only about a > > 20% > > chance that this will happen. > > > > So I have already started to think about some other ways to try to > > generate > > some volume through other channels, and even though it would likely be > > much > > smaller volume, it might be just enough to do a deal with GoldPeak, given > > what I know of their 18-year history with these batteries and what sorts > > of > > volumes they've previously done. > > > > Getting back to the previous discussion in another, separate thread about > > for-profit vs. not-for-profit status and motivations, I have already > > decided > > that whichever way we can generate sufficient volume with GoldPeak for us > > to > > get their batteries, either the former or the latter way I discussed > > above, > > I would make such batteries available at one price -- the same price that > > I > > would be getting, without any markup or commission for myself -- to anyone > > who wants them and who, more importantly, has a track record of > > demonstrated > > technical capability and experience to be able to competently integrate > > these batteries into a conversion. (It won't help either GoldPeak or the > > stellar reputation of NiMH batteries if someone ends up killing or > > degrading > > GoldPeak's batteries due to their own lack of experience and competence. > > GoldPeak has been quite clear about this in my conversations with them.) > > > > I'm not going to go into any more specifics about this in a public forum > > like this, but if you want to meet with me in person, I'd be happy to > > discuss more details on this up to the limits of what my NDA covers. I > > will > > be at the Fort Pierce EV Rally this Saturday, April 26. > > > > Yes, Saft does have the battery on their website. Good luck getting it. > > Many others have tried, including much larger commercial players. But > > hey, > > keep trying. I'd be interested to learn whatever you find out. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Charles Whalen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "FLEAA Mailing List" > > <[email protected]> > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:48 PM > > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > > > Thanks for the grat info. So where can we get NiMH batteries for a > > conversion? Is there anything? I tried today all day w/saft and left > > messages before reading your email. They do have the battery on the site > > though. > > > > Thanks > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:51:27 > > To:"Florida EAA" <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > > > Hi Joseph, > > > > Your understanding is not quite correct. > > > > GoldPeak has an unrestricted, permissive Ovonics license from 1991 that > > allows it to sell large-format NiMH batteries (>10Ah) into the US market, > > which was grandfathered upon Chevron's purchase of the patents around the > > turn of the century. > > > > European battery manufacturers Saft and Varta both *had* (past-tense) > > grandfathered Ovonics licenses that allowed them to sell large-format NiMH > > (>10Ah) batteries in Europe only, but both companies voided the terms and > > conditions of their licenses upon their acquisitions by an American > > battery > > manufacturer, Johnson Controls of Milwaukee (in both cases), such that > > neither of them can produce large-format NiMH batteries any longer, even > > for > > the European market. (Note that that pdf you referenced is dated July > > 2005, > > which predates Saft's acquisition by Johnson Controls. Try buying new > > 100Ah > > NiMH batteries from Saft now and see what answer you get. Hint: I > > already > > know the answer to that question, from several entities that have tried.) > > > > There are two companies, Electro Energy and Nilar, that have both > > developed > > large-format bipolar NiMH batteries, but neither one of them is in > > commercial production. Both companies are in clear violation of the > > Chevron > > patent licensing rights, as the patents relate to the electrochemistry at > > the cell level (which remains the same), not the modular construction. > > But Chevron will not bother spending all the money and dedicating all the > > legal resources that it takes to bring a patent infringement lawsuit (like > > they did and won against Toyota and Panasonic, to the tune of $30 million) > > against either one of these companies unless either one of them scores a > > large-volume commercial OEM contract, ... which neither of them has done > > and > > neither is expected to do, for exactly that reason. There is a guy in San > > Diego operating out of his garage who is doing Prius plug-in hybrid > > conversions using Nilar's NiMH batteries. As long as this remains a > > backyard operation of very small volume, only several cars a year, this > > guy > > will remain under the radar and Chevron won't waste their time with him > > and > > with Nilar. But if it ever reaches large-volume OEM commercial volumes, > > Chevron will sue for patent infringement and will win. Chevron's top > > executives have said so, exactly that, in private conversations. > > > > Chevron's NiMH patents expire on December 31, 2014. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Charles Whalen > > > > > > Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:38:06 -0400 > > From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > To: [email protected] > > Message-ID: > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > As I understand, Chevron's patent control over large-format NiMH > > batteries means that no other company but them can produce such > > batteries. > > > > However, why does Saft sell high-capacity (100 Ah+) NiMH batteries? > > http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/NHE_en.pdf > > The pdf is dated July 2005. > > > > I've heard about new NiMH batteries that avoid patent troubles, such > > as "bi-polar" NiMH batteries. > > http://www.electroenergyinc.com/products/technicalpapers/BipolarNickel.pdf > > > > How long have these been around? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Florida EAA mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.floridaeaa.org > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1395 - Release Date: 4/24/2008 > > 7:24 AM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Florida EAA mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.floridaeaa.org > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1395 - Release Date: 4/24/2008 > 7:24 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > Florida EAA mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.floridaeaa.org > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1395 - Release Date: 4/24/2008 > 7:24 AM > > > > _______________________________________________ > Florida EAA mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.floridaeaa.org > _______________________________________________ Florida EAA mailing list [email protected] http://www.floridaeaa.org
