Charles, OK, now I'm confused. If Gold Peak still has the legal right to produce large format NiMH batteries, why didn't Toyota just buy the batteries through them?
Andrew -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Whalen Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:27 PM To: FLEAA Mailing List; Joseph T. Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents Hi Joseph, Having been around the EV community and industry for quite some time, I have a pretty good idea who that person is. There is principally one person, quite well-known in fact, in the EV community who takes exactly that line, and in exactly the same way that you expressed it. That person and the vehemence and personal vindictiveness with which he takes that position has been responsible for some of the ugliest, nastiest personal insults and flames I have ever seen on any issue on the various EV lists. Having been witness to it and the ugliness of it, I have no intention of provoking that sort of response directed at me, nor do I have the time for this. Therefore, I would respectfully request that you please do not cross-post my comments to other lists. We have an open list here. Anyone who wants to is free to join this list, and this list is not censored or moderated. However, we will not tolerate that kind of personal abusiveness on this list, and anyone who engages in it will be removed from the list. I myself don't have time right now to monitor other lists, much less participate in discussions on other lists; I can barely keep up with this FLEAA list as it is. Therefore, I do not want my comments posted to a list where I cannot monitor what is said about me, especially when I am likely to be personally attacked in an abusive manner, given the very ugly past history on this particular issue by the person in question to whom you are referring. Toyota executives who ran the RAV4-EV program confirm that the Chevron NiMH patent infringement lawsuit against them, resulting in a $30 million judgment that they and Panasonic had to pay to Chevron, is the very reason that they were forced to stop producing the RAV4-EV and that they would have continued to do so were it not for the loss of that lawsuit which required them to stop making the batteries for the car. On the other hand, if you look at my last few posts on this subject -- specifically those related to GoldPeak and how I have been working on trying to make business deals to generate enough volume (i.e. *demand*) to enable us to get some of their large-format NiMH batteries -- it is entirely clear and self-evident that *demand* is obviously an integral part of the equation. In any business, there are always two sides of the market -- supply and demand. One *has* to look at and examine issues on both sides. How one wants to divide up and attempt to quantify the various causes of the current difficulty in obtaining large-format NiMH batteries between: a) Chevron's control of the patents, patent licensing rights, and their premeditated, very deliberate and clever suppression of this disruptive technology (which their top executives admit to), b) demand issues, c) price increases and volatility of nickel on world commodity markets, and d) other factors, is an academic exercise that doesn't much interest me, nor one that I have time for. These are complex business issues. Clearly it is "all of the above", but I couldn't begin to try to quantify various shares of those causes. Having said that, just given the statements of Chevron's own executives as well as those of Toyota's executives, I think it is quite clear that (a) has been an important and likely even a dominant factor. In that sense, I think you and I are in agreement on that. Charles Whalen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "FLEAA Mailing List" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents Thank you Charles for all the info. On insightcentral.net (for the Honda Insight) there was a discussion about NiMH batteries and one of the members were saying that the whole NiMH patent situation is not related to the oil companies, and instead it is entirely the fault of the market. Of course, it cannot entirely be the oil companies fault, the same way it cannot entirely be the car buying public's fault; it lies somewhere in between. However, I'd say the fault falls more onto the oil companies than the car buying public... :) Is it okay if I share your info onto Insightcentral.net? Can I copy and paste it even? On 4/24/08, Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One additional, very important point I should make on this -- relating to > the requirement of having the requisite track record of demonstrated > technical capability and experience to be able to competently integrate > these batteries into a conversion, before GoldPeak would consider allowing > someone to be in on a group-buy or piggyback on a larger commercial > deal -- > is that if you are planning to use a Manzanita Micro charger or any of the > other popular "hobbyist-gear" chargers, you can stop right there and just > forget about using NiMH, because those hobbyist-gear chargers are not > capable of competently charging NiMH. You will need a "professional-gear" > OEM-quality charger that is both programmable, with multi-step, -stage, > and > -cycle algorithms, and also CAN-controllable with multiple feedbacks, > including both voltage and temperature feedback from each module. One > such > charger is the Brusa, but that now costs around $19,000 for the 10kW > version. Otherwise, one has to arrange for another, suitable, > programmable, > CAN-controllable charger that would be acceptable and competently charge > NiMH. There are others out there that are available to OEMs but not to > individuals, I believe. > > There are also very strict requirements for the Thermal Management System > (TMS) and how it must be constructed to optimize the thermodynamics and > cooling of the batteries, which are definitely exothermic, especially at > the > top of the charge. > > Using GoldPeak large-format NiMH batteries would make a very nice, > high-quality conversion or kitcar EV with a proven 10-15 year / 200,000 > mile > battery life, but it cannot be done on the cheap. It would definitely be > a very high-budget conversion or kitcar EV. > > Charles Whalen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "FLEAA Mailing List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > The only place we can get them is from GoldPeak. I know and speak with > GoldPeak's Chairman and have had an intensive series of meetings with > GoldPeak's Chief Battery Engineer (of 30 years). I have also signed an > NDA > with them, which I believe they would require of anyone before they would > give you much information about their batteries, as they don't publish any > detailed specs or information about their batteries on their website. > > What you asking is something that I have been working on for a year now > and > am continuing to pursue. It takes a lot of work and deal-making, bringing > people together and trying to sell large commercial interests on the > advantages of NiMH batteries, which some are largely ignorant of and have > no > experience with, unlike myself. This all takes time. We would have to > piggyback on larger commercial volumes of much bigger players than > ourselves. That's the only way we will ever be able to get these > batteries. > It may be possible by early next year; that's probably at least how long > it > will take this one particularly large commercial deal to come together. > But > deep down, my own personal feeling -- knowing the parties involved and > some > of the other battery options they're pursuing, and having brokered this > tentative deal myself -- is that I suspect there's probably only about a > 20% > chance that this will happen. > > So I have already started to think about some other ways to try to > generate > some volume through other channels, and even though it would likely be > much > smaller volume, it might be just enough to do a deal with GoldPeak, given > what I know of their 18-year history with these batteries and what sorts > of > volumes they've previously done. > > Getting back to the previous discussion in another, separate thread about > for-profit vs. not-for-profit status and motivations, I have already > decided > that whichever way we can generate sufficient volume with GoldPeak for us > to > get their batteries, either the former or the latter way I discussed > above, > I would make such batteries available at one price -- the same price that > I > would be getting, without any markup or commission for myself -- to anyone > who wants them and who, more importantly, has a track record of > demonstrated > technical capability and experience to be able to competently integrate > these batteries into a conversion. (It won't help either GoldPeak or the > stellar reputation of NiMH batteries if someone ends up killing or > degrading > GoldPeak's batteries due to their own lack of experience and competence. > GoldPeak has been quite clear about this in my conversations with them.) > > I'm not going to go into any more specifics about this in a public forum > like this, but if you want to meet with me in person, I'd be happy to > discuss more details on this up to the limits of what my NDA covers. I > will > be at the Fort Pierce EV Rally this Saturday, April 26. > > Yes, Saft does have the battery on their website. Good luck getting it. > Many others have tried, including much larger commercial players. But > hey, > keep trying. I'd be interested to learn whatever you find out. > > Best regards, > > Charles Whalen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "FLEAA Mailing List" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > Thanks for the grat info. So where can we get NiMH batteries for a > conversion? Is there anything? I tried today all day w/saft and left > messages before reading your email. They do have the battery on the site > though. > > Thanks > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:51:27 > To:"Florida EAA" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > > Hi Joseph, > > Your understanding is not quite correct. > > GoldPeak has an unrestricted, permissive Ovonics license from 1991 that > allows it to sell large-format NiMH batteries (>10Ah) into the US market, > which was grandfathered upon Chevron's purchase of the patents around the > turn of the century. > > European battery manufacturers Saft and Varta both *had* (past-tense) > grandfathered Ovonics licenses that allowed them to sell large-format NiMH > (>10Ah) batteries in Europe only, but both companies voided the terms and > conditions of their licenses upon their acquisitions by an American > battery > manufacturer, Johnson Controls of Milwaukee (in both cases), such that > neither of them can produce large-format NiMH batteries any longer, even > for > the European market. (Note that that pdf you referenced is dated July > 2005, > which predates Saft's acquisition by Johnson Controls. Try buying new > 100Ah > NiMH batteries from Saft now and see what answer you get. Hint: I > already > know the answer to that question, from several entities that have tried.) > > There are two companies, Electro Energy and Nilar, that have both > developed > large-format bipolar NiMH batteries, but neither one of them is in > commercial production. Both companies are in clear violation of the > Chevron > patent licensing rights, as the patents relate to the electrochemistry at > the cell level (which remains the same), not the modular construction. > But Chevron will not bother spending all the money and dedicating all the > legal resources that it takes to bring a patent infringement lawsuit (like > they did and won against Toyota and Panasonic, to the tune of $30 million) > against either one of these companies unless either one of them scores a > large-volume commercial OEM contract, ... which neither of them has done > and > neither is expected to do, for exactly that reason. There is a guy in San > Diego operating out of his garage who is doing Prius plug-in hybrid > conversions using Nilar's NiMH batteries. As long as this remains a > backyard operation of very small volume, only several cars a year, this > guy > will remain under the radar and Chevron won't waste their time with him > and > with Nilar. But if it ever reaches large-volume OEM commercial volumes, > Chevron will sue for patent infringement and will win. Chevron's top > executives have said so, exactly that, in private conversations. > > Chevron's NiMH patents expire on December 31, 2014. > > Best regards, > > Charles Whalen > > > Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:38:06 -0400 > From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [FLEAA] NiMH Patents > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > As I understand, Chevron's patent control over large-format NiMH > batteries means that no other company but them can produce such > batteries. > > However, why does Saft sell high-capacity (100 Ah+) NiMH batteries? > http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/NHE_en.pdf > The pdf is dated July 2005. > > I've heard about new NiMH batteries that avoid patent troubles, such > as "bi-polar" NiMH batteries. > http://www.electroenergyinc.com/products/technicalpapers/BipolarNickel.pdf > > How long have these been around? > > > _______________________________________________ > Florida EAA mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.floridaeaa.org > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1395 - Release Date: 4/24/2008 > 7:24 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > Florida EAA mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.floridaeaa.org > -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1395 - Release Date: 4/24/2008 7:24 AM _______________________________________________ Florida EAA mailing list [email protected] http://www.floridaeaa.org _______________________________________________ Florida EAA mailing list [email protected] http://www.floridaeaa.org
