Hi Andrew, ok, so I will give you this teamviewer ID and password tommorrow morning by mail. I could be online from about 06:00 o'clock CET (we currently have summer time, so I think the difference to GMT is currently GMT plus 2 hours), is this too early for you? You are in a different time zone, I guess Eastern from mine.
From which time on should I be online with my Ubuntu installation? I hope I do not miscalculate the time due to time zone differences, and our summer time. Regards, Jens Am Sonntag, 27. September 2015 schrieb Andrew Deryabin: > Hi Jens, > > 27.09.2015 21:31, Jens Radloff пишет: > > Hi Andrew, > > > > ok. So you can use my Ubuntu Studio installation directly. This is > > also the best way to reproduce the behaviour. If I would set up a > > VM with Ubuntu Studio, then I would need to configure this VM > > exactly the same way as my direct Ubuntu Studio installation. And > > then there would be the chance that the behaviour cannot be > > reproduced in the VM. > > > > I will install Teamviewer tomorrow morning in my Ubuntu Studio > > installaiton. Then I will send you my IP address. I guess it will > > be valid until tommorow til 23:59 CET. Is ist okay for you to look > > at my system tomorrow? > > Ok, I'm planning to work all day (except 13:00-14:00 GMT) and be > sitting if front of my monitor :) > Teamviewer will give you ID (9 digits) and password (4 digits). I'll > need them to connect to you. ID will remain the same (it made up from > ethernet address), but password will change every time you restart > it. There is no need in your IP address. > > > If you need to apply a command that needs the password of my Ubuntu > > installation (with the sudo command), then I will type it in for > > you, okay? > > I think, that I'll install muse to some directory in your home dir, > so there will not be any need in your root password (I hope). > > > Regards, > > > > Jens > > > > Am Sonntag, 27. September 2015 schrieb Andrew Deryabin: > >> Hi Jens, > >> > >> The main reason for VM is private security. > >> So, if you can give me access to your main OS ( variant b) ), > >> this will be the best way, of course :). > >> > >> 27.09.2015 19:26, Jens Radloff пишет: > >>> Hi Andrew, > >>> > >>> I could install a VM on my machine, but is this necessary? > >>> > >>> I have two systems installed on my machine: > >>> > >>> a) Debian 7.x > >>> b) Ubuntu Studio 14.04.3, where MusE is installed. > >>> > >>> Don't you have a machine or VM with Ubuntu Studio 14.04.x > >>> installed? > >>> > >>> Can it be avoided that I need to install a VM in b)? > >>> > >>> I could give you direct access to b) via teamviewer if you want, > >>> without any VM installed in b), if a VM is avoidable. I only > >>> would need to move two directories (two MusE songs) to a > >>> location which you cannot access ;-) There are no personal data > >>> located in b). > >>> > >>> What do you think about this? > >>> > >>> If I would grant you access to b) via teamviewer, without a VM > >>> installed there - would you then maybe change b), its programme > >>> setup and its general configuration, and maybe mess it up in > >>> order to fix the issue? Is this the reason why you ask me to > >>> install a VM? > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Jens > >>> > >>> Am Sonntag, 27. September 2015 schrieb Andrew Deryabin: > >>>> Hi Jens, > >>>> > >>>> Ok. That's good. > >>>> > >>>> About metronome problem: I can suggest the following decision > >>>> (If you don't mind, of course): can you make a virtual machine > >>>> and run teamviewer it it? > >>>> I'll then can debug this problem more quickly :). > >>>> P.S. the VM's OS should be the same as yours. > >>>> > >>>> 27.09.2015 16:21, Jens Radloff пишет: > >>>>> Hi Andrew, > >>>>> > >>>>> I just downloaded and installed the latest clone - issue fixed. > >>>>> Thanks. But the other problem (loop mode, metronome button > >>>>> activated => crash) still exists. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Jens > >>>>> > >>>>> Am Sonntag, 27. September 2015 schrieb Andrew Deryabin: > >>>>>> Hi Jens, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Now all tracks are visible by default. Update is now pushed to > >>>>>> master. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 27.09.2015 11:47, Jens Radloff пишет: > >>>>>>> Hi Andrew, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thank you for announcing to fix this issue. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jens > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Am Sonntag, 27. September 2015 schrieben Sie: > >>>>>>>> Hi Jens, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 27.09.2015 08:21, Jens Radloff пишет: > >>>>>>>>> Good morning Andrew, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info. Now I can see all tracks in my songs, > >>>>>>>>> using a ~/.config MusE folder of a clone installation. I > >>>>>>>>> clicked all these buttons which by default hide certain > >>>>>>>>> kinds of tracks. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> About Out1 not visible problem. It's not displayed by > >>>>>>>>>> default (I think it shouldn't be fixed). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Oops, sorry - I wanted to say *It should be fixed*. It > >>>>>>>> seems that yesterday I wanted to sleep too much :) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think it is not a good idea to not display all these > >>>>>>>>> kinds of tracks by default - if the user is unexperienced > >>>>>>>>> with MusE, or not as experienced as a MusE power user. All > >>>>>>>>> people using MusE for the first time will be confronted > >>>>>>>>> with the problem "why are certain tracks not displayed?". > >>>>>>>>> I do not think they will look at the buttons below the > >>>>>>>>> menu bar to resolve this problem. I did not look at these > >>>>>>>>> buttons, too. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> But this is only my humble opinion about this default > >>>>>>>>> setting. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Of course. I'll make them activated by default. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Jens > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Am Samstag, 26. September 2015 schrieben Sie: > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Jens, > >>>>>>>>>> About Out1 not visible problem. It's not displayed by > >>>>>>>>>> default (I think it shouldn't be fixed). Now you can > >>>>>>>>>> display missing tracks by clicking appropriate buttons on > >>>>>>>>>> "Outputs" toolbar. Attached png file shows them. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 26.09.2015 16:42, Jens Radloff пишет: > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Andrew, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I have created a dump file using gdb in my debug > >>>>>>>>>>> installation. I attached the dump file to this email. > >>>>>>>>>>> Hope this helps. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> P.S. > >>>>>>>>>>>> In your output file I saw this message: > >>>>>>>>>>>> readConfigMidiPort: device not found MDA DX10 LV2-0 > >>>>>>>>>>>> Does it mean, that you do not have mda dx10 plugin > >>>>>>>>>>>> installed? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> This message seems to be related to the content of the > >>>>>>>>>>> folder ~/.config/MusE. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> When I start MusE with this folder which has been created > >>>>>>>>>>> by the official 2.2.1 release, then I can see in the MusE > >>>>>>>>>>> GUI > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> a) the Out 1 track > >>>>>>>>>>> b) the MDA DX10 LV2-0 plugin track > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> When I start MusE with this folder which has been created > >>>>>>>>>>> by a 2.2.1 clone, then I cannot see a) nor b) in the GUI > >>>>>>>>>>> of MusE. Both tracks are not displayed. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> To demonstrate this, I have attached two screenshots to > >>>>>>>>>>> this email: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> - The screenshot "new_muse_folder.png" shows the MusE GUI > >>>>>>>>>>> where the Out 1 track and the MDA DX10 LV2-0 track are > >>>>>>>>>>> *not* displayed: MusE runs with a ~/.config/MusE folder > >>>>>>>>>>> that has been created by a MusE 2.2.1 clone > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> - The screenshot "old_muse_folder.png" shows the MusE GUI > >>>>>>>>>>> where the Out 1 track and the MDA DX10 LV2-0 track *are* > >>>>>>>>>>> displayed: MusE runs with a ~/.config/MusE folder that > >>>>>>>>>>> has been created by the official MusE 2.2.1 release. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> By the way, I created the attached dump file with a > >>>>>>>>>>> ~/.config/MusE folder that has been created by the > >>>>>>>>>>> official MusE 2.2.1 release. Due to this, there should > >>>>>>>>>>> be no message "device not found MDA DX10 LV2-0" in the > >>>>>>>>>>> dump file. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Jens > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Am Freitag, 25. September 2015 schrieb Andrew Deryabin: > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Jens, > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info. > >>>>>>>>>>>> One more thing - your bug report doesn't have a > >>>>>>>>>>>> backtrace. Can you do the following: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> run in terminal: > >>>>>>>>>>>> gdb /opt/muse_2.2.1_patched_debug_installation/bin/muse2 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> ... do the same as before to make it crash... > >>>>>>>>>>>> in terminal you will see gdb command line. > >>>>>>>>>>>> type command: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> bt > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> this will produce backtrace. That's what we'll need to > >>>>>>>>>>>> work further. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> P.S. > >>>>>>>>>>>> In your output file I saw this message: > >>>>>>>>>>>> readConfigMidiPort: device not found MDA DX10 LV2-0 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Does it mean, that you do not have mda dx10 plugin > >>>>>>>>>>>> installed? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>> Andrew > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> 25.09.2015 20:51, Jens Radloff пишет: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Robert, hi Andrew, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> So I just compiled and installed a new debug version of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> MusE from the current clone. I attached a dump file > >>>>>>>>>>>>> about the behaviour, hope this helps. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding my jack settings: I do not know how to evoke > >>>>>>>>>>>>> them on the command line, so I made a screenshot of my > >>>>>>>>>>>>> jackd settings in qjacktl. See the attached screenshot. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The jack settings were automatically set by the Ubuntu > >>>>>>>>>>>>> installation routine. I did not change them. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jens > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Freitag, 25. September 2015 schrieb Jens Radloff: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Andrew, hi Robert, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The issue "Another MusE crash: MusE 2.2.1, loop mode, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> metronome button activated" is NOT fixed! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I played the file test_song.med in my fresh clone > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> release installation (see my last email regarding this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue), I forgot to click the metronome button. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I just did, I clicked the metronome button, and: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MusE crashes when the play cursor reaches the end of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the loop region. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now I will first create a debug version of MusE using > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the clone source files and will create a debug file > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with hopefully better debug information. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jens > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Freitag, 25. September 2015 schrieb Jens Radloff: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Robert, hi Andrew, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the MusE installation I used to reproduce this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour is a release build. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Today I did the following: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I recompiled and re-installed the latest clone as > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a release build. Before that I deleted the target > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subdirectory path muse/muse2 fort the git command, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and applied the command "git clone > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/muse- sequencer/muse.git". Then I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied "cmake -i", "make" and "sudo make install". > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before running "sudo make install" I removed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content of the destination directory of the command > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "sudo make install". (The other method, suggested by > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, via "git pull" and "make clean" did not work > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because "make" resulted in an "Error 2": the file > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all.h was missing) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. I ensured that there is no MusE folder in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~/.config > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. I started the build release of MusE. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. I loaded the file test_song.med into MusE. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. I again noticed that the file test_song.med does > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not have a Out 1 track in the GUI of MusE. I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reported this behaviour before. This issue should be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fixed. It is not possible to properly creatre music > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with MusE without an Out 1 track. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. I played this file, loop mode activated. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> => MusE does not crash anymore when the play cursor > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches the end of the loop region. I let this file > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play several times through the loop region: MusE does > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not crash. I played this song again: MusE does not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crash > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> => Issue "Another MusE crash: MusE 2.2.1, loop mode, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metronome button activated" is fixed. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> => I guess that by the "git pull" command, then > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "make" and "sudo make install" some files of an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> older build in my build directory where copied to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the destination directory of the "sudo make install" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> command, so the directory where MusE was installed > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contained both MusE programme files from an older > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the latest build, so it was messed up. So it is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better not to use "git pull", but instead start from > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a clean and empty directory where one applies the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> command "git clone > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/muse-sequencer/muse.git";, then > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmake -i, then make, then make install. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you use a standard distribution? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My distribution is Ubuntu Studio. This is the release > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information about my Ubuntu Studio installation: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jrad@music:/etc$ lsb_release -a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No LSB modules are available. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Distributor ID: Ubuntu > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Description: Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Release: 14.04 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Codename: trusty > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jrad@music:/etc$ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what settings do you start jack with? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AS the issue is now fixed on my system, we do not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to look in the Jack settings of my system > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anymore. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no need anymore for me to build a debug > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of the latest MusE clone or start MusE > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without plugins, as the issue is fixed on my system. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jens > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Donnerstag, 24. September 2015 schrieb Robert > > > > Jonsson: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Jens, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-09-24 18:11 GMT+02:00 Jens Radloff > >>> > >>> <[email protected]>: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Andrew, hi Robert, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To ensure that this behaviour is not caused by an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "old" MusE folder in ~/.config I removed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directory ~/.config/MusE and started MusE again, so > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a new, fresh MusE folder in ~/.config got created. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Background information: This "old" MusE folder in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~/.config is from my installation of MusE 2.2.1, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the last official release. I think Andrew told me > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, if I use a current clone version of MusE, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then I need to remove the old MusE folder in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~/.config to get a new version of this folder > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> created that is set up for the use of a current > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clone version of MusE. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me add at this point that now, with a new, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fresh MusE folder in ~/.config, I do not have a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Out 1" track in any MusE song anymore which I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> created so far. I think I reported this bug some > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months ago. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, as I wrote, I ensured that my clone > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> installation of MusE is based on a fresh MusE > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> folder in ~/.config. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the behaviour can be still reproduced: MusE > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crashes when the metronome button is activated at > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the moment when the play cursor reaches the end of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the loop region in this song test_song.med . > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this behaviour does not seem to be caused by the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content of the MusE folder in ~/.config. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, good so we can rule that out. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the output of gdb (I could only copy what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shown in the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> console): > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I only took a brief look but it seems the amount of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information in the back trace is not much. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is the muse binary still built for release? Building > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it for debug may give more information. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some additional questions, sorry if you already > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answered before.. do you use a standard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distribution? maybe we can reproduce your problem. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what settings do you start jack with? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The start of the printout below is what MusE outputs > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during running with -D, right? And you are starting > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MusE from within gdb? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless you already did so I would suggest that you > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recompile MusE similar to the below: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmake .. -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=debug > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make clean > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make install > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing you could try is to start MusE without > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins. and use MusEs own fluidsynth (under MESS) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as audio output. muse2 -pNI2 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We had for instance an issue some years ago that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some plugins caused corruption in MusE memory space > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> due to duplicated symbol names. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Robert > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --------- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lmuse-developer mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmuse-de > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ve lo pe r > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- --- --------- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lmuse-developer mailing list > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmuse-dev > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> el op er ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Lmuse-developer mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmuse-developer
