Hi I think your comments are well worded and fit the shoe.
Hermod -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sendt: 30. januar 2003 12:16 Til: Log4J Developers List Emne: RE: logging.apache.org I figure now might be a good time to throw in my two cents (in review, it looks more like 25 cents ;-). I'm one of those developers that's out here on the mailing list silently reading all the posts etc. I have to agree with Mark on several of the points he made here. Within the past couple of months I submitted a potential change to the DOMConfigurator. I just wanted to be able to run an XML string into the DOMConfigurator rather than always having to have a physical XML file. I haven't heard anything about it since I submitted it. Why haven't I heard anything? I don't know. It doesn't bother me that much, but... Its important to consider that programmers are proud people. We tend to think rather highly of our own intellect, even when we are fools. In an open source environment, when a developer who thinks highly of his work is snubbed (or thinks he has been), he is quite likely to take his talents elsewhere. The process needs to be such that each contributor feels like a part of "the team". Personally, I feel that logging isn't exactly a niche product. I feel that logging is an integral part of writing solid enterprise level code. It is absolutely imperitive that we have logs of what our applications are doing in an enterprise setting. Even in a desktop environment I think logs are extremely important. What desktop app have you ever written that didn't have some homegrown custom logging setup? Nearly every program I've ever written has written to the console or a flat file for lack of a better place. Logging is as integral to development as unit testing. EVERY programmer has ALWAYS written debug information to the screen during debug or development. Whereas JBoss only matters to j2ee and increasingly to general middleware apps, logging matters to everybody. So what can be done for the "Mike McAngus' of the world"? Too many committers can make a mess of things, it is true. But, can there be a difference between committers on an architectural level and committers on an "internal" code level (ie: fixing comments in the code, optimizing a method, etc). Another project I've been associated with had committers (2 really active committers, but 4-5 with commit priviledges), and then had team members, and then the community at large. The community basically just offered up ideas, but no real code changes. The team members and committers would provide the real code changes, and the committers would, well, commit them (or not). This organization provides a bigger surface area for interacting with the community because the community can interact with team members (of which there could be 20 or more) rather than just with committers (2). There are plenty of us out here who'd be more than happy to offer our services as team members. This would provide the ability to get a lot more done much more quickly. There are SO MANY THINGS that can still be done! While the overall architecture is set and is really quite good, there are a zillion tools and things to be improved. What about a GUI for specifying the log file settings? What about improving the "chainsaw" or other gui's for reading log files? What about more and better appenders? What about "plugging" log4j into 1.4 logging? What about doing more for saving and loading settings and files in databases? What about ...? There are hundreds of ideas that people have, but don't know how to submit the ideas, or don't have the time to write the code themselves and so don't submit. If log4j is going to survive, indeed thrive, then the contributions MUST increase. Log4j will die against 1.4 logging if it does not continue to make strides. A healthy contributor base is essential. I am also in doubt that Sun has many (if any) engineers actively working on their logging API, but that isn't going to stop the vast majority of java programmers in real world situations from adopting it. Sun, IBM, and others have made very substantial investments in Java and you can bet that they are going to support their package. Richard PS> +1 for logging.apache.org (in case anyone cares ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email with attachments is solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. Please also be aware that DnB cannot accept any payment orders or other legally binding correspondence with customers as a part of an email. 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