I got this response from Gavin: Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
Merging the lists - no problem Merging all the subscribers - no problem Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint. If you are :- a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this is happening and the date then let me know. b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further. Thanks On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow > up with infra. > > On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: > >> Is there any follow-up to this? >> >> Ralph >> >> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >> wrote: >> >> 1. That seems fine to me. >> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but >> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add >> [list] to the start of the subject line. >> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen. >> >> Ralph >> >> >> >> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Some things: >> >> 1. Archives won't be merged. >> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email >> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over >> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer. >> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically >> subscribed to the combined list. >> >> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders >> to use the new list? >> >> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache. >>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 >>> >>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, >>>> >>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and >>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the >>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now? >>>> >>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Total agreement. >>>>> >>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses >>>>>> dropped the other lists. This is a horrible way to have discussions that >>>>>> affect all the sub projects. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ralph >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. >>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful >>>>>> for >>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects. >>>>>> >>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and >>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar >>>>>> architectures >>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive >>>>>> conversations about this would be great. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.stal...@magine.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the >>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the >>>>>>> subprojects. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner < >>>>>>> dpsen...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging >>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same >>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache >>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification >>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good >>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing >>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just >>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before >>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago >>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic >>>>>>>> before that a month ago >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might >>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> release announcements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't >>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should >>>>>>>> merge >>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to >>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know >>>>>>>> what that list is for). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes >>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists >>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists >>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to >>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1 >>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1 >>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>>> +1: 5 >>>>>>>>> +0: 1 >>>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>>> -1: 1 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> >>>>>>>>> u...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1 >>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1 >>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>>> +1: 3 >>>>>>>>> +0: 0 >>>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>>> -1: 4 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed >>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services >>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ >>>>>>>>> -> u...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases >>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To >>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [java] >>>>>>>>> [net] >>>>>>>>> [cxx] >>>>>>>>> [php] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should >>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Voting: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists! >>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much. >>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it. >>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 >>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The >>>>>>>>> vote >>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> [image: MagineTV] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal* >>>>>>> Senior software developer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Magine TV* >>>>>>> mikael.stal...@magine.com >>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden | www.magine.com >>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this >>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message >>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you >>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, >>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by >>>>>>> reply email. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > -- Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
