Matt, Any update on this?
Ralph > On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: > > Thanks Matt! > > Ralph > >> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with >> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today. >> >> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions? >> >> Ralph >> >>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> I got this response from Gavin: >>> >>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request. >>> >>> Merging the lists - no problem >>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem >>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - >>> no problem >>> >>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they >>> forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint. >>> >>> If you are :- >>> >>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users >>> know this is happening and the date then let me know. >>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow >>> up with infra. >>> >>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >>> Is there any follow-up to this? >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>>> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> 1. That seems fine to me. >>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but >>>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add >>>> [list] to the start of the subject line. >>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>>>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Some things: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged. >>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email >>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved >>>>> over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer. >>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically >>>>> subscribed to the combined list. >>>>> >>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders >>>>> to use the new list? >>>>> >>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>>>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: >>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 >>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651> >>>>> >>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>>>> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >>>>> Yes, >>>>> >>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it. >>>>> >>>>> Ralph >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>>>>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and >>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep >>>>>> the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com >>>>>> <mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>> Total agreement. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>>>>> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses >>>>>> dropped the other lists. This is a horrible way to have discussions >>>>>> that affect all the sub projects. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ralph >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>>>>>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. >>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful >>>>>>> for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various >>>>>>> projects. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) >>>>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures >>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more >>>>>>> inclusive conversations about this would be great. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.stal...@magine.com >>>>>>> <mailto:mikael.stal...@magine.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the >>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the >>>>>>> subprojects. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com >>>>>>> <mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects >>>>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very >>>>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache >>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification >>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means >>>>>>> all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a >>>>>>> good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why >>>>>>> the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. >>>>>>> Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger >>>>>>> audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists >>>>>>> I follow: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that >>>>>>> about two weeks ago >>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before >>>>>>> that a month ago >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote: >>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be >>>>>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just >>>>>>>> release announcements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't >>>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should >>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all >>>>>>>>> devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't >>>>>>>>> know what that list is for). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are >>>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists >>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would >>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:dpsen...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so >>>>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to >>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org <mailto:d...@logging.apache.org> >>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>>>> +1: 5 >>>>>>>>>> +0: 1 >>>>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>>>> -1: 1 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ >>>>>>>>>> -> u...@logging.apache.org <mailto:u...@logging.apache.org> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1 >>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1 >>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>>>> +1: 3 >>>>>>>>>> +0: 0 >>>>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>>>> -1: 4 >>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed >>>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing >>>>>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org <mailto:d...@logging.apache.org> >>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ >>>>>>>>>>> -> u...@logging.apache.org <mailto:u...@logging.apache.org> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases >>>>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. >>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [java] >>>>>>>>>>> [net] >>>>>>>>>>> [cxx] >>>>>>>>>>> [php] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should >>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Voting: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists! >>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much. >>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it. >>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, >>>>>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote >>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal >>>>>>> Senior software developer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Magine TV >>>>>>> mikael.stal...@magine.com <mailto:mikael.stal...@magine.com> >>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden | www.magine.com >>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this >>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message >>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may >>>>>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, >>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply >>>>>>> email. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com <mailto:boa...@gmail.com>> >
