No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: > OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions? > > Ralph > > On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I got this response from Gavin: > > Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request. > > Merging the lists - no problem > Merging all the subscribers - no problem > Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - > no problem > > People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if > they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the > hint. > > If you are :- > > a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users > know this is happening and the date then let me know. > b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further. > > Thanks > > On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me >> follow up with infra. >> >> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Is there any follow-up to this? >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> 1. That seems fine to me. >>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but >>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add >>> [list] to the start of the subject line. >>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen. >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Some things: >>> >>> 1. Archives won't be merged. >>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email >>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over >>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer. >>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically >>> subscribed to the combined list. >>> >>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders >>> to use the new list? >>> >>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache. >>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 >>>> >>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, >>>>> >>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it. >>>>> >>>>> Ralph >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and >>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the >>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now? >>>>> >>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Total agreement. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses >>>>>>> dropped the other lists. This is a horrible way to have discussions >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> affect all the sub projects. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. >>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and >>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar >>>>>>> architectures >>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more >>>>>>> inclusive >>>>>>> conversations about this would be great. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.stal...@magine.com >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the >>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the >>>>>>>> subprojects. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner < >>>>>>>> dpsen...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging >>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the >>>>>>>>> same or a >>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one >>>>>>>>> Apache >>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification >>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good >>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the >>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those >>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. >>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before >>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago >>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic >>>>>>>>> before that a month ago >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that >>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, >>>>>>>>> these are >>>>>>>>> just release announcements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it >>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all >>>>>>>>> devs >>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't >>>>>>>>> know what that list is for). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes >>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s >>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things >>>>>>>>>> that would >>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsen...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists >>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to >>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>>>> +1: 5 >>>>>>>>>> +0: 1 >>>>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>>>> -1: 1 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ >>>>>>>>>> -> u...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1 >>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1 >>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0 >>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>>>>>> +1: 3 >>>>>>>>>> +0: 0 >>>>>>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>>>>>> -1: 4 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed >>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services >>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>>>>>> d...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, >>>>>>>>>> general@ -> u...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become >>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future >>>>>>>>>> emails. >>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [java] >>>>>>>>>> [net] >>>>>>>>>> [cxx] >>>>>>>>>> [php] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should >>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Voting: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists! >>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much. >>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it. >>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 >>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The >>>>>>>>>> vote >>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal* >>>>>>>> Senior software developer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Magine TV* >>>>>>>> mikael.stal...@magine.com >>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden | www.magine.com >>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this >>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message >>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you >>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, >>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by >>>>>>>> reply email. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> >> > > > > -- > Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > -- Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
