Hi, Robert:

The ABR can detect the prefix unreachable via the SPF calculation once it 
receives the LSA for link or node failure. What’s the necessary to run 
multi-hop BFD among ABR and other PEs?


Aijun Wang
China Telecom

> On Jul 7, 2022, at 20:03, Peter Psenak <[email protected]> 
> wrote:
> 
> On 07/07/2022 12:26, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>> That's true.
>> I am pointing out that this in some networks may be much slower then 
>> invalidating the next hops from BGP route reflectors by running *local* 
>> multihop BFD sessions to subject PEs (all within an area).
>> So I have a question ... Let's forget about BGP and RRs and just stay 
>> focused on IGP:
>> Would it be feasible to trigger UPA on ABRs by running multihop BFD sessions 
>> between ABRs and local area PEs and not wait for PE-P detection of link down 
>> as well as flooding to carry the information to ABRs ?
> 
> I would think running BFD on each individual link in the local area would be 
> a much better solution. And people already often do that.
> 
> thanks,
> Peter
> 
>> Thx,
>> R.
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 12:18 PM Peter Psenak <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>    Robert,
>>    BGP PIC depends on the IGP convergence. We are not changing any of that
>>    by UPA.
>>    thanks,
>>    Peter
>>    On 07/07/2022 12:02, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>>     > Peter,
>>     >
>>     > All I am saying is that this may be pretty slow if even directly
>>     > attached P routers must way say 6 seconds (3 x 2 sec BFD) to declare
>>     > peer down.
>>     >
>>     > And that is in contrast to running BFD from say BGP RR to all PEs
>>    in an
>>     > area.
>>     >
>>     > The fundamental point is that in the case of PUA you MUST wait
>>    for all P
>>     > routers to tell you that PE in fact went down. While in case of
>>     > invalidating service routes the first trigger is good enough.
>>     >
>>     > To me this is significant architectural difference.
>>     >
>>     > Many thx,
>>     > R.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 11:54 AM Peter Psenak <[email protected]
>>    <mailto:[email protected]>
>>     > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>>     >
>>     >     On 07/07/2022 11:38, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>>     >      >
>>     >      >  > there is no such thing.
>>     >      >
>>     >      > By far away ABR I mean ABR far away from failing PE
>>    connecting local
>>     >      > are to the area 0. There can be number of P routers in
>>    between.
>>     >
>>     >     ABR has the full visibility of the local area and knows when any
>>     >     node or
>>     >     prefix becomes unreachable. It is determined by the SPF
>>    computation and
>>     >     prefix processing that is triggered as a result of the change
>>    in the
>>     >     local area.
>>     >
>>     >     thanks,
>>     >     Peter
>>     >
>>     >      >
>>     >      > Let me provide you with an illustration:
>>     >      >
>>     >      > PE can be in Honolulu. ABR in Huston. All in one area. For me
>>     >     this ABR
>>     >      > is far away from PE.
>>     >      >
>>     >      > On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 11:35 AM Peter Psenak
>>    <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>     >     <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>     >      > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>    <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote:
>>     >      >
>>     >      >     Robert,
>>     >      >
>>     >      >     On 07/07/2022 11:25, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>>     >      >      > Hi Peter,
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >  > Section 4:
>>     >      >      >  >
>>     >      >      >  > "The intent of UPA is to provide an event driven
>>    signal
>>     >     of the
>>     >      >      >   > transition of a destination from reachable to
>>     >     unreachable."
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      > That is too vague.
>>     >      >
>>     >      >     it's all that is needed.
>>     >      >
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      > I am asking how you detect that transition on a
>>    far away ABR.
>>     >      >
>>     >      >     there is no such thing. The detection is done based on
>>    the prefix
>>     >      >     transition from reachable to unreachabile in a local
>>    area by
>>     >     local
>>     >      >     ABRs.
>>     >      >     Remote ABRs just propagate the UPA.
>>     >      >
>>     >      >     thanks,
>>     >      >     Peter
>>     >      >
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      > For example, are you tracking flooding on all links to
>>     >     subject PE
>>     >      >     from
>>     >      >      > all its neighbours and only when all of them remove
>>    that
>>     >     link from
>>     >      >      > topology you signal PUA ?
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      > If so practically such trigger may be pretty slow and
>>     >      >     inconsistent as in
>>     >      >      > real networks as links over which PEs are connected are
>>     >     often of a
>>     >      >      > very different quality, coming from different
>>    carriers and may
>>     >      >     have for
>>     >      >      > stability varying BFD timers. So here you would have to
>>     >     wait for the
>>     >      >      > slowest link to be detected on the neighbouring P
>>    router
>>     >     as down.
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      > Thx,
>>     >      >      > R.
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      > On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 10:16 AM Peter Psenak
>>     >     <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>    <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>     >      >     <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>    <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
>>     >      >      > <mailto:[email protected]
>>    <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
>>    <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>     >     <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>    <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>>> wrote:
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >     Robert,
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >     On 06/07/2022 15:07, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>>     >      >      >      > Hi Peter,
>>     >      >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      > Can you please point me in the draft
>>     >      >      >      >
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >
>>     >
>>    
>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt
>>    
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>
>>     >         
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>>
>>     >      >
>>     >           
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>>>
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >
>>     >           
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>>>>
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      >
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >
>>     >           
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>>>
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >
>>     >           
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>
>>  
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt 
>> <https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ppsenak-lsr-igp-ureach-prefix-announce-00.txt>>>>>
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      > to some section which specifies based on exactly
>>     >     what network
>>     >      >      >     flooding
>>     >      >      >      > changes UPA will be generated by ABRs ?
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >     Section 4:
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >     "The intent of UPA is to provide an event driven
>>     >     signal of the
>>     >      >      >        transition of a destination from reachable to
>>     >     unreachable."
>>     >      >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      > I think such text is not an implementation
>>    detail,
>>     >     but it is
>>     >      >      >     critical
>>     >      >      >      > for mix vendor interoperability.
>>     >      >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      > Can UPA also be generated by P node(s) ?
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >     only if they are ABRs or ASBRs.
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      > Specifically I was looking to find some
>>    information on
>>     >      >     how do you
>>     >      >      >      > achieve assurance that UPA really needs to
>>    be generated
>>     >      >     when using
>>     >      >      >      > various vendor's nodes with very different
>>    flooding
>>     >     behaviours
>>     >      >      >     and when
>>     >      >      >      > subjects PEs may have a number of different
>>    links
>>     >     each with
>>     >      >      >     different
>>     >      >      >      > node/link down detection timer ?
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >     sorry, I don't understand the above.
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >     thanks,
>>     >      >      >     Peter
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      >
>>     >      >      >      > Many thx,
>>     >      >      >      > R.
>>     >      >      >      >
>>     >      >      >
>>     >      >
>>     >
> 
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