Auther,
Transcriptions of original keyboard compositions to the lute, are NOT
original lute pieces, and transcriptions of original lute pieces to the
keyboard, are not keyboard pieces, they are what we "village idiots" refer
to as ARRANGEMENTS, or transcriptions, or neither, just popular tunes of the
time, played on what ever instrument was hanging around.
Somewhere in the beginning of this debate, you simply made the mistake
of calling transcriptions "original ". We forgive you, it can happen to the
best of us at times.
If you just said Byrd's, Couperin's, music was arranged by lutenists
for the lute, I think we would all agree with you, But throw into the soup
this compulsiveness about "grand staff" is at best a dream, that only
someone disconnected with the obvious reality of the situation and history
would say, and to keep pressing the issue is really a waste of all our time.
I'll give you the benefit of doubt ( which is again pure speculation,
and has no basis in fact ) that Weiss wrote in Grand staff, and gave to Bach
a copy of the A major suite. That would be it... everything else was
written in tab.
>I do not understand why some guitar players seem intent >in portraying
>lutenists as being musical illiterates who can't >read pitch notation.
>First Matanya, now this guy Thames. >I have put a block on Thames's
>messages and will not >read them, or comment on them. (Out of the blue, I
> >received privately a rabid, hate-filled message from >Thames. I don't
>need that.)
Auther, your tendency for misrepresentation, and exaggeration is quite
obvious! I've never said lutinests were "musical illiterates" or even
hinted at that. I said the preferred notation was tablature for lutenits, as
in the case of Weiss, and every other lutenist of any significance.
I never said Weiss couldn't read bass clef, only that there's a quote
that he could play from a violin score.
AS far as my hate filled message, another slight exaggeration on your
part.
Michael Thames
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Byrd
> Perhaps it is a bit too early to call for a revised edition of Doug's lute
> history. But with 58 pieces in the Paston lute books, and all the other
> pieces that Rainer and I listed, quite a bit more than a half dozen works
> by Byrd have come down to us in versions for lute. As I mentioned in my
> initial posting, some are arrangements (by name composers such has Cutting
> and Holborne). And who is to say whether the corantos, pavans and the
> famous volta, were not first composed as lute pieces, and then
> keyboardized. As Byrd did with works by Dowland, John Johnson and others.
> And these works deserve our attention. The Byrd version of Johnson
> Delight Pavan and Galliard is the earliest one. And it shows that the
> opening four notes in later versions are not the melody, but a written out
> ornament. Another reason to favor the Spencer/Robinson/Berger policy of
> including all relevant versions of a piece in a collected edition.
>
> There are eight pieces by Couperin in a theorbo manuscript (Res 1106) at
> the National Library in Paris. Many of the pieces in that huge manuscript
> are by de Visee, but most of the Couperin pieces are unattributed. They
> are also not mentioned in Ledbetter's book. And indeed much lute music in
> staff notation remains uncharted territory. And there are some very large
> collections of it. These are the titles in Ms Res 1106:
>
> "Pastorelle de Couprin"
> "Les Silvains de Mr Couprin [mis par de Visee]" (twice, once a
> fragment)
> "Les bergeries rondeau"
> "Les delices"
> "Les bergeries"
> "La Voluptueuze"
> ":Menuet de Mr. Couprin"
>
> I wonder if Benjamin finds them in deVisee's style.
>
> As for Couperin's transcriptions on grand staff, I was refering,not to his
> original keyboard pieces in style luthee. Most of the clavecinistes made
> such transcriptions (e.g., Couperin, Chambonnieres, and esp. D'Anglebert).
>
> Paul has recent recordings of Byrd as well as that early one. See "Robin
> Hood," for example. The fantasia mentioned by Mathias may be the one
> Stewart published with his article on the Paston Lute Books. But there
> are three others like it in the Paston books.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Durbrow
> To: lute list
> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 12:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Byrd
>
>
> At 10:43 AM -0600 7/11/05, Michael Thames wrote:
> > I'm also courious about Couprion. Not being a historian , but
> able to
> >add 2 and 2 together, one would have expected to see volumes of records
> made
> >of Couperin's lute suites, what a find that would be! Yet as an avid
> >collector of all baroque lute Cd's that I come across, I've yet to see
> any
> >lute suites or peices by him. One might also have expected Paul Odette
> to
> >record the complete "Lute Works of William Byrd".
>
> >Here's a quote from DAS "History of the lute"
> >
> > William Byrd (1542-1623) the most highly regaurded composer of
> >the English Renaissance, wrote no music for the lute. However,
> >lutenists transcribed some of his keyboard and vocal pieces for
> >thier instrument, about a half a dozen of these intabulations
> >survive today
>
> I believe Paul Odette's very first commercial release was dedicated
> to Byrd and Dowland. He must have played all the extant Byrd tabs
> then.
>
> As for Couperin, DeVise arranged at least one piece for theorbo.
> cheers,
> --
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>
>
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>
> --
