To All: I think Chris is on to something regarding the nature of the material. Old strings were produced, twisted and 'extruded' using a simpler technology resulting in a less uniform result. That is why strings came in bundles with probably greater lengths than we are used to. Lutenists were advised to find the most consistent and uniform section of a long string for tuning to a true pitch, and the rest was likely used for frets. There are many aspects of the way we approach the instrument and the music today that I'm sure are entirely inauthentic. For instance, playing a dance piece with variations in a large concert hall with polite people sitting quietly, and with such blinding un-danceable speed that polyphony and phrasing are entirely obscured. What possibly might have been the hurry? Call of nature? Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 05:46:09 -0800 > To: [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Subject: [LUTE] Re: New frets > > > Hi Martin and Chris, > > So we're all going through a long on-again, off-again experiment with > doubled frets. Interesting. I'd like to use doubled frets if that's > what was done and, as usual, I expect the advantages aren't > immediately obvious. For now I don't know when I'll come back to them > and there are plusses though hard to define --especially at 5:30 am. > > Yes, I've never understood what makes the paintings' frets look > smaller in diameter. I used to think it was the painters' whim but > it's too prevalent to ignore. Something doesn't add up and I don't > know what it is. > > Chris: > "Once again I'll jump into hot water and point out that the old gut > material had quite different physical properties than our modern > reconstructions." > > Yes, I agree here (and this isn't meant to be any kind of slight to > our stringmakers and their extensive R&D). > > Sean > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 12:04 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: > > > Hi Sean and all, > > > > Mindful of the fact that HIP frets should be double, in the late > > 1980s I had double frets on one of my lutes for some time. I found > > that I could flatten the strand nearest the nut slightly by rubbing > > it with my thumbnail and this speeded up the process of wearing them > > in. I had no trouble with unclear notes. > > > > I can't remember when or why, but eventually I went back to single > > frets. Then there was a discussion on this list about the virtues > > of double frets, including the idea that they gave a clearer and/or > > more sustained sound. So I was inspired to try them again (same > > lute) and had some trouble getting clear notes - only in one or two > > places, but it was enough to put me off. Perhaps I should have used > > Sean's double-single method (non-HIP) which allows you to have a > > thinner fret on the nut side and would also make it easier to > > separate them if you wanted to go in for a bit of tastino! > > > > I was also attracted to the idea that double frets slip less and > > might be more secure in terms of strings slipping sideways, because > > of the greater surface area in contact with the string. This was an > > especially attractive idea for playing slurred passages on the > > theorbo. When I refret the theorbo, I think I'll have to try it. > > > > It's also interesting that most players nowadays use huge frets > > (single) while the old guys (the Ambassadors painting, Dowland) used > > very thin (double) frets. Is there a connection? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Martin > > > > Sean Smith wrote: > >> > >> Well, Dan, there's that special tomato knot that defies > >> comprehension standing between me and HIP in this case. Can you > >> imagine doing that w/ those monster 1mm 1st and 2nd frets? Brrr. > >> > >> I don't know if anyone answered the question on how often to change > >> frets but I remember Jacob Herringmann saying he swapped them all > >> out before concerts. A lot of work tho I'm sure it gets easier as > >> time goes by. He uses singles as far as I've ever seen. But there > >> is nothing quite as clean-sounding as a newly fretted instrument. > >> > >> Grant Tomlinson taught that we should have a good cradle for the > >> lute to work with changing frets and expect to take your time. Then > >> he mentioned Jacob did it all sitting on the couch, lickety split. > >> Me, I'm an all afternoon kinda guy. > >> > >> Even new doubled frets at their best never quite sounded as clean > >> as singles --just my opinion and I'm sure there are pros who really > >> have it down. Personally, I think the extended surface absorbs the > >> high frequencies. Same goes for old single frets. > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: > >> > >>>> Do it twice! > >>> > >>> HEY! It's the SINGLE frets that ain't HIP - look at that damn > >>> picture > >>> again- (you know, the one with the boreless Oboe Muto) Is there any > >>> known historical information about single frets? Maybe Mace > >>> mentioned > >>> them? Don't want to make trouble- just askin'.... > >>> > >>> Dan > >>> > >>>> Honestly, it works though it doesn't seem HIP whatsoever. The > >>>> advantage being you only need to replace one half (always take off > >>>> the more worn fret and replace it w/ a new one on the bridge side). > >>>> > >>>> Anyway, I've done the double fret experiment for a few years on my > >>>> main ax. It has worked, I've learned a few things but I'm ready to > >>>> come back to the single fret club. > >>>> > >>>> Sean > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________
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