This observation was, as you saw, entirely speculative and aimed to elicit any observations. But even so it led to no response as I recall - except now! So thank you Monica.
Regarding style, well...... the ' Allemande di Angelo Michiele' seemed to me rather more treble and bass polarised - closer to the theorbo works of deVisee (preserved especially in his published book, the de Saizeny MS and BN 1575) and the works of lutenists writing at the end of the 17th century like Count Losy - than to French lute music up to 1670. Against this are the theorbo pieces by Hurel (eg in Pierpoint Morgan library 17524) which probably date closer to 1670 and also show a treble/bass polarisation. In short, in lieu of any other input I concluded there was no substantive evidence that the Allemande was post 1682 and thus our AM might well have been the composer. Have you any thoughts? I can scan a few pages if you want to take it further. rgds Martyn In case you're unfamiliar with this interesting MS, regarding the other pieces in the Ms, many are Dm lute pieces by French composers from their 'golden age' (the few named inc Gautier - the inevitable 'Le Canon', Dufaux) but also from a later generation de Gallot, Bertelli (who also penned some doubles here) and 'C. Logis de Vienne en Austriche' AND a our man (or not) 'Gigue de Angelin de Rome'. A different hand (possibly Ginter's) has written a fine suite by Ginter. The hand for most of the lute pieces looks, at least to me, identical with that in the theorbo pieces. . --- On Mon, 22/3/10, Monica Hall <[email protected]> wrote: From: Monica Hall <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010, 14:09 I don't have a solution to this particular problem but I was interested in something which you said about the style of the pieces suggesting a later date in the earlier discussion. To witt... "The only thing that bothers me about these attributions to A. M. Bartolotti is the dates: from style alone I would have tended to date the NB 17.706 MS to the end of of the 17thC and the Goess pieces no earler than the 1670s (but there are a number of scribes) - but Claude Chauvel makes a decent case for B being dead by 1682 when his Royal Household establishment books were passed to Launay (of course he may have simply retired but I'd have thought in that case we'd have pension payments recorded). " What Chauvel actually says is that the establishment books record that the possessions (les biens in French) of one Miquelange, Italien were assigned to Launay, not that the establishment books were passed to Launay. Under French law the possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property of the king to dispose as he saw fit. If this Miquelange, Italien is Bartolotti, he was presumably dead by January 1682 and his worldly goods given to Launay. Bartolotti would still have been alive and active in the 1670s but not later. What is it about the style of the pieces in the Vienna manuscript which suggests that they are later that say 1680? As ever Monica Could it be that these two A.M.s are not the same; did he have a son also called A M who played the theorbo? Against such wild speculation is that B clearly was an adventurous and, indeed, progressive composer so perhaps the mid 17thC is not unreasonable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][email protected]> To: "Alexander Batov" <[2][email protected]>; "Vihuela Dmth" <[3][email protected]>; "Lute Dmth" <[4][email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:08 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > Thank you Alexander - an interesting idea. I've scanned my copy of the > first page of this 'Preludio' and attach it herewith. > > You'll see that the same number is put against different (tablature) bass > notes - especially see right at the end of the last line. > > My own preference is that it indicates a manner of breaking the chords - > but see the 4th and 5th chords from the end of the last line: a three > against a 5 note chord - possible of course if one beaks the chord in an > uneven manner (say the two lowest notes and the top three notes as three > seperate strikes) but........ > > As a very long stop, I've also wondered if it might indicate duration (eg > number of seconds or pulses per chord) written in by a teacher to indicate > the interpretation of this 'prelude non mesure' ..... but...... > > Martyn > > > -- On Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander Batov <[5][email protected]> > wrote: > > > From: Alexander Batov <[6][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti > To: > Cc: "Lutelist" <[7][email protected]> > Date: Sunday, 21 March, 2010, 17:36 > > > OK, here is an idea. In the so called "Swan" manuscript (St-Petersburg, > the library of the academy of science) some of the lute pieces appear to > be re-adapted to play on baryton, or, indeed, on either. I don't have a > copy of this MS with me at the moment but if the memory serves me right (I > used to see the original a number of times but that was 25 years ago!), a > similar sort of numbers are written beneath the bottom tablature line, > next to the usual bass course letters. What this would mean is that the > person would play from the tablature using the main six strings of the > baryton, with the left hand thumb plucking the corresponding drones at the > back of the neck. And it's those drone strings that would have to be > indicated so as to eliminate guess work. > > What you can do is to check if the same numbers (2 or 3, for instance) > mean like indicating the same bass note (judging by what's written on the > tablature stave above) or, perhaps, if they are written next to the same > bass course indications (i.e. as for theorbo). > > Alexander > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > On the subject of Bartolotti's theorbo works, has anyone yet come up > with an interpretation of the small numbers under the tablature stave > in the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien NB MS 17.706. Altho' this > piece isn't attributed to B., a later Allemande in a very similar > style is. I asked this question a few years ago (in fact 14 Dec 2005) > but there seemed no convincing view of what they meant. I've pasted my > original query below and would be grateful for any insights. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ' What I think are even more problematical, are the numbers (ie a '2' > or a '3') appearing under some chords at the bottom of page 90 (179) in > the theorbo pieces at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first glance one > might say these are simply shorthand for bass course tablature, but the > MS uses the usual strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to indicate > these; is it the number of times the chord is repeated? - but in the > context of the particular chord progressions where it appears this > makes little sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? but the > relevant chords have varying numbers of notes (ranging from three to 5) > and he also uses the established ://: sign for arpeggiation; is it some > LH fingering? - but in the context this again makes no sense.' > > Martyn > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" > style="font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>Thank you Alexander - an interesting idea. I've scanned my copy of > the first page of this 'Preludio' and attach it herewith.</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>You'll see that the same number is put against different (tablature) > bass notes - especially see right at the end of the last line.</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>My own preference is that it indicates a manner of breaking the > chords - but see the 4th and 5th chords from the end of the last line: a > three against a 5 note chord - possible of course if one beaks the chord > in an uneven manner (say the two lowest notes and the top three notes as > three seperate strikes) but........</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>As a very long stop, I've also wondered if it might indicate > duration (eg number of seconds or pulses per chord) written in by a > teacher to indicate the interpretation of this 'prelude non mesure' > ..... but......</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>Martyn</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>-- On <B>Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander Batov > <I><[9][email protected]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV> > <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: > 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Alexander Batov > <[10][email protected]><BR>Subject: [LUTE] Re: > Bartolotti<BR>To: <BR>Cc: "Lutelist" > <[11][email protected]><BR>Date: Sunday, 21 March, 2010, > 17:36<BR><BR> > <DIV class=plainMail>OK, here is an idea. In the so called "Swan" > manuscript (St-Petersburg, the library of the academy of science) some of > the lute pieces appear to be re-adapted to play on baryton, or, indeed, on > either. I don't have a copy of this MS with me at the moment but if the > memory serves me right (I used to see the original a number of times but > that was 25 years ago!), a similar sort of numbers are written beneath the > bottom tablature line, next to the usual bass course letters. What this > would mean is that the person would play from the tablature using the main > six strings of the baryton, with the left hand thumb plucking the > corresponding drones at the back of the neck. And it's those drone strings > that would have to be indicated so as to eliminate guess work.<BR><BR>What > you can do is to check if the same numbers (2 or 3, for instance) mean > like indicating the same bass note (judging by what's written on the > tablature stave above) or, > perhaps, if they are written next to the same bass course indications > (i.e. as for theorbo).<BR><BR>Alexander<BR><BR>On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 Martyn > Hodgson wrote:<BR><BR>On the subject of Bartolotti's theorbo works, has > anyone yet come up<BR>with an interpretation of the small numbers under > the tablature stave<BR>in the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien NB MS > 17.706. Altho' this<BR>piece isn't attributed to B., a later Allemande in > a very similar<BR>style is. I asked this question a few years ago (in fact > 14 Dec 2005)<BR>but there seemed no convincing view of what they meant. > I've pasted my<BR>original query below and would be grateful for any > insights.<BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------- ------------------<BR><BR>' > What I think are even more problematical, are the numbers (ie a '2'<BR>or > a '3') appearing under some chords at the bottom of page 90 (179) > in<BR>the theorbo pieces at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first glance > one<BR>might say these are simply shorthand for bass course tablature, but > the<BR>MS uses the usual strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to > indicate<BR>these; is it the number of times the chord is repeated? - but > in the<BR>context of the particular chord progressions where it appears > this<BR>makes little sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? but > the<BR>relevant chords have varying numbers of notes (ranging from three > to 5)<BR>and he also uses the established ://: sign for arpeggiation; is > it some<BR>LH fingering? - but in the context this again makes no > sense.'<BR><BR>Martyn<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>To get on or off this list see > list information at<BR><A > href="[12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html"; > target=_blank>[13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm l</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br> > > > > > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374-- > -- -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
