From: Monica Hall <[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - date of Allemande....
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 4:51 PM
I have lost the thread a bit
here. We are talking about the Vienna ms.
aren't we? I have only got the pages attributed
to Bartolotti which you sent me when we discussed this
before and I have never really got to grips with them.
I think it is a reasonable assumption that Bartolotti died
in about 1680 - this would be 40 years after his first
guitar book was printed and would give him a reasonable life
span.
As far as attributing the pieces to him, all that really
occurs to me is that we should be cautious about assuming
that because there are similar names these necessarily refer
to the same person. This is true of the
Angelo Mikielo guitar pieces. They are
rather simple but perhaps he wrote them for his students.
As ever
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[email protected]>
To: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>;
"Lute Dmth" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 4:26 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - date of Allemande....
>
>
> This observation was, as you saw,
entirely speculative and aimed to
> elicit any observations. But even so
it led to no response as I recall
> - except now! So thank you
Monica.
>
>
> Regarding style, well...... the '
Allemande di Angelo Michiele' seemed
> to me rather more treble and bass
polarised - closer to the theorbo
> works of deVisee (preserved
especially in his published book, the de
> Saizeny MS and BN 1575) and the works
of lutenists writing at the end
> of the 17th century like Count Losy -
than to French lute music up to
> 1670. Against this are the theorbo
pieces by Hurel (eg in Pierpoint
> Morgan library 17524) which probably
date closer to 1670 and also show
> a treble/bass polarisation.
>
> In short, in lieu of any other input
I concluded there was no
> substantive evidence that the
Allemande was post 1682 and thus our AM
> might well have been the composer.
Have you any thoughts? I can scan a
> few pages if you want to take it
further.
>
> rgds
>
> Martyn
>
> In case you're unfamiliar with this
interesting MS, regarding the other
> pieces in the Ms, many are Dm lute
pieces by French composers from
> their 'golden age' (the few named inc
Gautier - the inevitable 'Le
> Canon', Dufaux) but also from a
later generation de Gallot, Bertelli
> (who also penned some doubles here)
and 'C. Logis de Vienne en
> Austriche' AND a our man (or
not) 'Gigue de Angelin de Rome'. A
> different hand (possibly Ginter's)
has written a fine suite by Ginter.
> The hand for most of the lute pieces
looks, at least to me, identical
> with that in the theorbo pieces.
>
>
>
>
> .
> --- On Mon, 22/3/10, Monica Hall
<[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[email protected]>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
- copy of relevant page
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
> Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010,
14:09
>
> I don't have a solution to this
particular problem but I was interested
> in
> something which you said about the
style of the pieces suggesting a
> later
> date in the earlier
discussion. To witt...
> "The only thing that bothers me
about these attributions to A. M.
> Bartolotti is the dates: from style
alone I would have tended to date
> the NB
> 17.706 MS to the end of of the
17thC and the Goess pieces no earler
> than
> the 1670s (but there are a number of
scribes) - but Claude Chauvel
> makes a
> decent case for B being dead by 1682
when his Royal Household
> establishment
> books were passed to Launay (of
course he may have simply retired but
> I'd
> have thought in that case we'd have
pension payments recorded). "
> What Chauvel actually says is that
the establishment books record that
> the
> possessions (les biens in French) of
one Miquelange, Italien were
> assigned
> to Launay, not that the establishment
books were passed to Launay.
> Under French law the possessions of
foreigners who died in France
> became the
> property of the king to dispose as he
saw fit. If this Miquelange,
> Italien
> is Bartolotti, he was presumably dead
by January 1682 and his worldly
> goods
> given to
Launay. Bartolotti would still have been
alive and active in
> the
> 1670s but not later.
> What is it about the style of the
pieces in the Vienna manuscript which
> suggests that they are later that say
1680?
> As ever
> Monica
> Could it be that these two
A.M.s are not the same; did he have a son
> also
> called A M who played the
theorbo? Against such wild speculation is
> that B
> clearly was an adventurous and,
indeed, progressive composer so perhaps
> the
> mid 17thC is not unreasonable.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][email protected]>
> To: "Alexander Batov" <[2][email protected]>;
"Vihuela
> Dmth"
> <[3][email protected]>;
"Lute Dmth" <[4][email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:08 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti -
copy of relevant page
> > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=iso-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
> >
> >
> > Thank you Alexander - an
interesting idea. I've scanned my copy of
> the
> > first page of this 'Preludio'
and attach it herewith.
> >
> > You'll see that the same number
is put against different (tablature)
> bass
> > notes - especially see right at
the end of the last line.
> >
> > My own preference is that it
indicates a manner of breaking the
> chords -
> > but see the 4th and 5th chords
from the end of the last line: a three
> > against a 5 note chord -
possible of course if one beaks the chord in
> an
> > uneven manner (say the two
lowest notes and the top three notes as
> three
> > seperate strikes) but........
> >
> > As a very long stop, I've also
wondered if it might indicate duration
> (eg
> > number of seconds or pulses per
chord) written in by a teacher to
> indicate
> > the interpretation of this
'prelude non mesure' ..... but......
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> >
> > -- On Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander
Batov
> <[5][email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Alexander Batov <[6][email protected]>
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
> > To:
> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[7][email protected]>
> > Date: Sunday, 21 March, 2010,
17:36
> >
> >
> > OK, here is an idea. In the so
called "Swan" manuscript
> (St-Petersburg,
> > the library of the academy of
science) some of the lute pieces appear
> to
> > be re-adapted to play on
baryton, or, indeed, on either. I don't have
> a
> > copy of this MS with me at the
moment but if the memory serves me
> right (I
> > used to see the original a
number of times but that was 25 years
> ago!), a
> > similar sort of numbers are
written beneath the bottom tablature
> line,
> > next to the usual bass course
letters. What this would mean is that
> the
> > person would play from the
tablature using the main six strings of
> the
> > baryton, with the left hand
thumb plucking the corresponding drones
> at the
> > back of the neck. And it's those
drone strings that would have to be
> > indicated so as to eliminate
guess work.
> >
> > What you can do is to check if
the same numbers (2 or 3, for
> instance)
> > mean like indicating the same
bass note (judging by what's written on
> the
> > tablature stave above) or,
perhaps, if they are written next to the
> same
> > bass course indications (i.e. as
for theorbo).
> >
> > Alexander
> >
> > On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 Martyn
Hodgson wrote:
> >
> > On the subject of Bartolotti's
theorbo works, has anyone yet come up
> > with an interpretation of the
small numbers under the tablature stave
> > in the Prelude starting at f.
90v of Wien NB MS 17.706. Altho' this
> > piece isn't attributed to B., a
later Allemande in a very similar
> > style is. I asked this question
a few years ago (in fact 14 Dec 2005)
> > but there seemed no convincing
view of what they meant. I've pasted
> my
> > original query below and would
be grateful for any insights.
> >
> >
> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ' What I think are even more
problematical, are the numbers (ie a '2'
> > or a '3') appearing under some
chords at the bottom of page 90 (179)
> in
> > the theorbo pieces at the back
of Wien MS17.706. At first glance one
> > might say these are simply
shorthand for bass course tablature, but
> the
> > MS uses the usual strokes (ie a
/a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to indicate
> > these; is it the number of times
the chord is repeated? - but in the
> > context of the particular chord
progressions where it appears this
> > makes little sense; is it how
the chord is to be broken? but the
> > relevant chords have varying
numbers of notes (ranging from three to
> 5)
> > and he also uses the established
://: sign for arpeggiation; is it
> some
> > LH fingering? - but in the
context this again makes no sense.'
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see
list information at
> > [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374
> > Content-Type: text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
> >
> > <table cellspacing="0"
cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td
> valign="top"
> > style="font:
inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
> > <DIV>Thank you Alexander -
an interesting idea. I've scanned my copy
> of
> > the first page of this
'Preludio' and attach it herewith.</DIV>
> >
<DIV> </DIV>
> > <DIV>You'll see that the
same number is put against different
> (tablature)
> > bass notes - especially see
right at the end of the last line.</DIV>
> >
<DIV> </DIV>
> > <DIV>My own preference is
that it indicates a manner of breaking the
> > chords - but see the 4th and 5th
chords from the end of the last
> line: a
> > three against a 5 note chord -
possible of course if one beaks the
> chord
> > in an uneven manner (say the two
lowest notes and the top three notes
> as
> > three seperate strikes)
but........</DIV>
> >
<DIV> </DIV>
> > <DIV>As a very long stop,
I've also wondered if it might
> indicate
> > duration (eg number of seconds
or pulses per chord) written in by a
> > teacher to indicate the
interpretation of this 'prelude non mesure'
> > .....
but......</DIV>
> >
<DIV> </DIV>
> > <DIV>Martyn</DIV>
> >
<DIV> </DIV>
> >
<DIV> </DIV>
> > <DIV>-- On <B>Sun,
21/3/10, Alexander Batov
> > <I><[9][email protected]></I></B>
> wrote:<BR></DIV>
> > <BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid;
> PADDING-LEFT:
> > 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
5px"><BR>From: Alexander Batov
> > <[10][email protected]><BR>Subject:
[LUTE] Re:
> > Bartolotti<BR>To:
<BR>Cc: "Lutelist"
> > <[11][email protected]><BR>Date:
Sunday, 21 March, 2010,
> > 17:36<BR><BR>
> > <DIV class=plainMail>OK,
here is an idea. In the so called "Swan"
> > manuscript (St-Petersburg, the
library of the academy of science)
> some of
> > the lute pieces appear to be
re-adapted to play on baryton, or,
> indeed, on
> > either. I don't have a copy of
this MS with me at the moment but if
> the
> > memory serves me right (I used
to see the original a number of times
> but
> > that was 25 years ago!), a
similar sort of numbers are written
> beneath the
> > bottom tablature line, next to
the usual bass course letters. What
> this
> > would mean is that the person
would play from the tablature using the
> main
> > six strings of the baryton, with
the left hand thumb plucking the
> > corresponding drones at the back
of the neck. And it's those drone
> strings
> > that would have to be indicated
so as to eliminate guess
> work.<BR><BR>What
> > you can do is to check if the
same numbers (2 or 3, for instance)
> mean
> > like indicating the same bass
note (judging by what's written on the
> > tablature stave above) or,
> > perhaps, if they are written
next to the same bass course indications
> > (i.e. as for
theorbo).<BR><BR>Alexander<BR><BR>On
Sat, 20 Mar 2010
> Martyn
> > Hodgson
wrote:<BR><BR>On the subject of Bartolotti's
theorbo works,
> has
> > anyone yet come up<BR>with
an interpretation of the small numbers
> under
> > the tablature stave<BR>in
the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien NB
> MS
> > 17.706. Altho'
this<BR>piece isn't attributed to B., a later
> Allemande in
> > a very similar<BR>style
is. I asked this question a few years ago (in
> fact
> > 14 Dec 2005)<BR>but there
seemed no convincing view of what they
> meant.
> > I've pasted my<BR>original
query below and would be grateful for any
> >
> insights.<BR><BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------
> ------------------<BR><BR>'
> > What I think are even more
problematical, are the numbers (ie a
> '2'<BR>or
> > a '3') appearing under some
chords at the bottom of page 90 (179)
> > in<BR>the theorbo pieces
at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first
> glance
> > one<BR>might say these are
simply shorthand for bass course
> tablature, but
> > the<BR>MS uses the usual
strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to
> > indicate<BR>these; is it
the number of times the chord is repeated? -
> but
> > in the<BR>context of the
particular chord progressions where it
> appears
> > this<BR>makes little
sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? but
> > the<BR>relevant chords
have varying numbers of notes (ranging from
> three
> > to 5)<BR>and he also uses
the established ://: sign for arpeggiation;
> is
> > it some<BR>LH fingering? -
but in the context this again makes no
> >
sense.'<BR><BR>Martyn<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>To
get on or off this list
> see
> > list information
at<BR><A
> > href="[12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html";
> >
> target=_blank>[13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
> l</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
--0-595003020-1269245312=:61374--
> > --
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 2.
> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 5.
> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 6.
> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 9.
> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 10.
> http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
