Just to speak about the theorbo pieces in NB Wien 17.706, there's only
one piece with a name attached: 'Allemanda di Angelo Michiele'. Part of
the debate was wether this was our man or some other theorbo player
with the common first name AM.
I was never sure, but earlier speculated that on (admittably fairly
loose) stylistic grounds that it might date from after B's death and
thus be by some other AM.
As regards the other pieces, whilst they may seem close in
texture/style to the Allemanda, the question must be why none of these
others is attributed to any composer/player. I think the most likely
explanation is that the Allemanda is the exception and that all the
other theorbo pieces are by some other than 'Angelo Michiele' -
whoever this may be.......
--- On Mon, 22/3/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - date of Allemande....
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "Monica Hall"
<[email protected]>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010, 20:59
I've lost the thread is well. Would someone care to sum up what
probably is and maybe is not by our Signor B?
Chris
--- On Mon, 3/22/10, Monica Hall <[1][email protected]> wrote:
> From: Monica Hall <[2][email protected]>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - date of Allemande....
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][email protected]>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[4][email protected]>
> Date: Monday, March 22, 2010, 4:51 PM
> I have lost the thread a bit
> here. We are talking about the Vienna ms.
> aren't we? I have only got the pages attributed
> to Bartolotti which you sent me when we discussed this
> before and I have never really got to grips with them.
>
> I think it is a reasonable assumption that Bartolotti died
> in about 1680 - this would be 40 years after his first
> guitar book was printed and would give him a reasonable life
> span.
>
> As far as attributing the pieces to him, all that really
> occurs to me is that we should be cautious about assuming
> that because there are similar names these necessarily refer
> to the same person. This is true of the
> Angelo Mikielo guitar pieces. They are
> rather simple but perhaps he wrote them for his students.
>
> As ever
>
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[5][email protected]>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[6][email protected]>;
> "Lute Dmth" <[7][email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 4:26 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - date of Allemande....
>
>
> >
> >
> > This observation was, as you saw,
> entirely speculative and aimed to
> > elicit any observations. But even so
> it led to no response as I recall
> > - except now! So thank you
> Monica.
> >
> >
> > Regarding style, well...... the '
> Allemande di Angelo Michiele' seemed
> > to me rather more treble and bass
> polarised - closer to the theorbo
> > works of deVisee (preserved
> especially in his published book, the de
> > Saizeny MS and BN 1575) and the works
> of lutenists writing at the end
> > of the 17th century like Count Losy -
> than to French lute music up to
> > 1670. Against this are the theorbo
> pieces by Hurel (eg in Pierpoint
> > Morgan library 17524) which probably
> date closer to 1670 and also show
> > a treble/bass polarisation.
> >
> > In short, in lieu of any other input
> I concluded there was no
> > substantive evidence that the
> Allemande was post 1682 and thus our AM
> > might well have been the composer.
> Have you any thoughts? I can scan a
> > few pages if you want to take it
> further.
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> > In case you're unfamiliar with this
> interesting MS, regarding the other
> > pieces in the Ms, many are Dm lute
> pieces by French composers from
> > their 'golden age' (the few named inc
> Gautier - the inevitable 'Le
> > Canon', Dufaux) but also from a
> later generation de Gallot, Bertelli
> > (who also penned some doubles here)
> and 'C. Logis de Vienne en
> > Austriche' AND a our man (or
> not) 'Gigue de Angelin de Rome'. A
> > different hand (possibly Ginter's)
> has written a fine suite by Ginter.
> > The hand for most of the lute pieces
> looks, at least to me, identical
> > with that in the theorbo pieces.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > --- On Mon, 22/3/10, Monica Hall
> <[8][email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[9][email protected]>
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
> - copy of relevant page
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[10][email protected]>
> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[11][email protected]>
> > Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010,
> 14:09
> >
> > I don't have a solution to this
> particular problem but I was interested
> > in
> > something which you said about the
> style of the pieces suggesting a
> > later
> > date in the earlier
> discussion. To witt...
> > "The only thing that bothers me
> about these attributions to A. M.
> > Bartolotti is the dates: from style
> alone I would have tended to date
> > the NB
> > 17.706 MS to the end of of the
> 17thC and the Goess pieces no earler
> > than
> > the 1670s (but there are a number of
> scribes) - but Claude Chauvel
> > makes a
> > decent case for B being dead by 1682
> when his Royal Household
> > establishment
> > books were passed to Launay (of
> course he may have simply retired but
> > I'd
> > have thought in that case we'd have
> pension payments recorded). "
> > What Chauvel actually says is that
> the establishment books record that
> > the
> > possessions (les biens in French) of
> one Miquelange, Italien were
> > assigned
> > to Launay, not that the establishment
> books were passed to Launay.
> > Under French law the possessions of
> foreigners who died in France
> > became the
> > property of the king to dispose as he
> saw fit. If this Miquelange,
> > Italien
> > is Bartolotti, he was presumably dead
> by January 1682 and his worldly
> > goods
> > given to
> Launay. Bartolotti would still have been
> alive and active in
> > the
> > 1670s but not later.
> > What is it about the style of the
> pieces in the Vienna manuscript which
> > suggests that they are later that say
> 1680?
> > As ever
> > Monica
> > Could it be that these two
> A.M.s are not the same; did he have a son
> > also
> > called A M who played the
> theorbo? Against such wild speculation is
> > that B
> > clearly was an adventurous and,
> indeed, progressive composer so perhaps
> > the
> > mid 17thC is not unreasonable.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][12][email protected]>
> > To: "Alexander Batov" <[2][13][email protected]>;
> "Vihuela
> > Dmth"
> > <[3][14][email protected]>;
> "Lute Dmth" <[4][15][email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:08 AM
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti -
> copy of relevant page
> > > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374
> > > Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quoted-printable
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you Alexander - an
> interesting idea. I've scanned my copy of
> > the
> > > first page of this 'Preludio'
> and attach it herewith.
> > >
> > > You'll see that the same number
> is put against different (tablature)
> > bass
> > > notes - especially see right at
> the end of the last line.
> > >
> > > My own preference is that it
> indicates a manner of breaking the
> > chords -
> > > but see the 4th and 5th chords
> from the end of the last line: a three
> > > against a 5 note chord -
> possible of course if one beaks the chord in
> > an
> > > uneven manner (say the two
> lowest notes and the top three notes as
> > three
> > > seperate strikes) but........
> > >
> > > As a very long stop, I've also
> wondered if it might indicate duration
> > (eg
> > > number of seconds or pulses per
> chord) written in by a teacher to
> > indicate
> > > the interpretation of this
> 'prelude non mesure' ..... but......
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > >
> > > -- On Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander
> Batov
> > <[5][16][email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Alexander Batov
<[6][17][email protected]>
> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
> > > To:
> > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[7][18][email protected]>
> > > Date: Sunday, 21 March, 2010,
> 17:36
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, here is an idea. In the so
> called "Swan" manuscript
> > (St-Petersburg,
> > > the library of the academy of
> science) some of the lute pieces appear
> > to
> > > be re-adapted to play on
> baryton, or, indeed, on either. I don't have
> > a
> > > copy of this MS with me at the
> moment but if the memory serves me
> > right (I
> > > used to see the original a
> number of times but that was 25 years
> > ago!), a
> > > similar sort of numbers are
> written beneath the bottom tablature
> > line,
> > > next to the usual bass course
> letters. What this would mean is that
> > the
> > > person would play from the
> tablature using the main six strings of
> > the
> > > baryton, with the left hand
> thumb plucking the corresponding drones
> > at the
> > > back of the neck. And it's those
> drone strings that would have to be
> > > indicated so as to eliminate
> guess work.
> > >
> > > What you can do is to check if
> the same numbers (2 or 3, for
> > instance)
> > > mean like indicating the same
> bass note (judging by what's written on
> > the
> > > tablature stave above) or,
> perhaps, if they are written next to the
> > same
> > > bass course indications (i.e. as
> for theorbo).
> > >
> > > Alexander
> > >
> > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 Martyn
> Hodgson wrote:
> > >
> > > On the subject of Bartolotti's
> theorbo works, has anyone yet come up
> > > with an interpretation of the
> small numbers under the tablature stave
> > > in the Prelude starting at f.
> 90v of Wien NB MS 17.706. Altho' this
> > > piece isn't attributed to B., a
> later Allemande in a very similar
> > > style is. I asked this question
> a few years ago (in fact 14 Dec 2005)
> > > but there seemed no convincing
> view of what they meant. I've pasted
> > my
> > > original query below and would
> be grateful for any insights.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ' What I think are even more
> problematical, are the numbers (ie a '2'
> > > or a '3') appearing under some
> chords at the bottom of page 90 (179)
> > in
> > > the theorbo pieces at the back
> of Wien MS17.706. At first glance one
> > > might say these are simply
> shorthand for bass course tablature, but
> > the
> > > MS uses the usual strokes (ie a
> /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to indicate
> > > these; is it the number of times
> the chord is repeated? - but in the
> > > context of the particular chord
> progressions where it appears this
> > > makes little sense; is it how
> the chord is to be broken? but the
> > > relevant chords have varying
> numbers of notes (ranging from three to
> > 5)
> > > and he also uses the established
> ://: sign for arpeggiation; is it
> > some
> > > LH fingering? - but in the
> context this again makes no sense.'
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see
> list information at
> > > [8][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374
> > > Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quoted-printable
> > >
> > > <table cellspacing="0"
> cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td
> > valign="top"
> > > style="font:
> inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
> > > <DIV>Thank you Alexander -
> an interesting idea. I've scanned my copy
> > of
> > > the first page of this
> 'Preludio' and attach it herewith.</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > > <DIV>You'll see that the
> same number is put against different
> > (tablature)
> > > bass notes - especially see
> right at the end of the last line.</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > > <DIV>My own preference is
> that it indicates a manner of breaking the
> > > chords - but see the 4th and 5th
> chords from the end of the last
> > line: a
> > > three against a 5 note chord -
> possible of course if one beaks the
> > chord
> > > in an uneven manner (say the two
> lowest notes and the top three notes
> > as
> > > three seperate strikes)
> but........</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > > <DIV>As a very long stop,
> I've also wondered if it might
> > indicate
> > > duration (eg number of seconds
> or pulses per chord) written in by a
> > > teacher to indicate the
> interpretation of this 'prelude non mesure'
> > > .....
> but......</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > > <DIV>Martyn</DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > >
> <DIV> </DIV>
> > > <DIV>-- On <B>Sun,
> 21/3/10, Alexander Batov
> > > <I><[9][20][email protected]></I></B>
> > wrote:<BR></DIV>
> > > <BLOCKQUOTE
> style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid;
> > PADDING-LEFT:
> > > 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
> 5px"><BR>From: Alexander Batov
> > > <[10][21][email protected]><BR>Subject:
> [LUTE] Re:
> > > Bartolotti<BR>To:
> <BR>Cc: "Lutelist"
> > > <[11][22][email protected]><BR>Date:
> Sunday, 21 March, 2010,
> > > 17:36<BR><BR>
> > > <DIV class=plainMail>OK,
> here is an idea. In the so called "Swan"
> > > manuscript (St-Petersburg, the
> library of the academy of science)
> > some of
> > > the lute pieces appear to be
> re-adapted to play on baryton, or,
> > indeed, on
> > > either. I don't have a copy of
> this MS with me at the moment but if
> > the
> > > memory serves me right (I used
> to see the original a number of times
> > but
> > > that was 25 years ago!), a
> similar sort of numbers are written
> > beneath the
> > > bottom tablature line, next to
> the usual bass course letters. What
> > this
> > > would mean is that the person
> would play from the tablature using the
> > main
> > > six strings of the baryton, with
> the left hand thumb plucking the
> > > corresponding drones at the back
> of the neck. And it's those drone
> > strings
> > > that would have to be indicated
> so as to eliminate guess
> > work.<BR><BR>What
> > > you can do is to check if the
> same numbers (2 or 3, for instance)
> > mean
> > > like indicating the same bass
> note (judging by what's written on the
> > > tablature stave above) or,
> > > perhaps, if they are written
> next to the same bass course indications
> > > (i.e. as for
> theorbo).<BR><BR>Alexander<BR><BR>On
> Sat, 20 Mar 2010
> > Martyn
> > > Hodgson
> wrote:<BR><BR>On the subject of Bartolotti's
> theorbo works,
> > has
> > > anyone yet come up<BR>with
> an interpretation of the small numbers
> > under
> > > the tablature stave<BR>in
> the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien NB
> > MS
> > > 17.706. Altho'
> this<BR>piece isn't attributed to B., a later
> > Allemande in
> > > a very similar<BR>style
> is. I asked this question a few years ago (in
> > fact
> > > 14 Dec 2005)<BR>but there
> seemed no convincing view of what they
> > meant.
> > > I've pasted my<BR>original
> query below and would be grateful for any
> > >
>
> insights.<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------
----
> > ------------------<BR><BR>'
> > > What I think are even more
> problematical, are the numbers (ie a
> > '2'<BR>or
> > > a '3') appearing under some
> chords at the bottom of page 90 (179)
> > > in<BR>the theorbo pieces
> at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first
> > glance
> > > one<BR>might say these are
> simply shorthand for bass course
> > tablature, but
> > > the<BR>MS uses the usual
> strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to
> > > indicate<BR>these; is it
> the number of times the chord is repeated? -
> > but
> > > in the<BR>context of the
> particular chord progressions where it
> > appears
> > > this<BR>makes little
> sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? but
> > > the<BR>relevant chords
> have varying numbers of notes (ranging from
> > three
> > > to 5)<BR>and he also uses
> the established ://: sign for arpeggiation;
> > is
> > > it some<BR>LH fingering? -
> but in the context this again makes no
> > >
> sense.'<BR><BR>Martyn<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>To
> get on or off this list
> > see
> > > list information
> at<BR><A
> > >
href="[12][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html";
> > >
>
> target=_blank>[13][24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/i
ndex.htm
> > l</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374--
> > > --
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
[25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
.uk
> > 2.
[26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 3.
[27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
du
> > 4.
[28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> > 5.
[29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 6.
[30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 7.
[31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> > 8. [32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 9.
[33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 10.
[34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel
ademano.com
> > 11.
[35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> > 12. [36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 13. [37]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
3.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
5.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
10.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
12.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
13.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
16.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
17.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
20.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
21.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
25.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
26.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
29.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
30.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
33.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
34.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
36. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
37. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
