-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 12:47 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
That's not true ,modern guitarists use their thumb on the treble
strings.
It is a necessary skill for music by Rodrigo to Britten... not to
mention
transcription (God forbid!)
Best,
Mark Delpriora
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Kieffer <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 12:15 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Morgan,
I think most important thing is, as mentioned above, plucking both
strings of each course, and plucking the strings as strong as you
can
into the soundboard (this includes with the thumb as well). I
think
classical guitarist aren't used to using the thumb on the treble
strings, but it is important in lute music.
It can be done with both TO and TU technique, and I think the best
thing would be to try for yourself and see what is best. The
bottom
line is, If you develop a good tone, nobody will care what
technique
you are using. The most important part is the tone. Have a tone
that
people will envy.
I personally think if you are playing repertoire like Dowland and
Laurencini, TO sounds a lot better in the long run, but it is
difficult
and frustrating to learn. Many people find TU to be easier and
more
comfortable for the hand (even guitarists).
TU will make your playing a lot "faster" and you will be able to
play
rapid passagi and such...but in music like Dowland (and all music
from
that time and after 1600), this effect is not desirable (in fact I
think they considered it hideous). Playing extremely fast has
become
popular the last few decades (sort of like speed metal).
With TO your playing can become incredibly loud, full, and refined.
And the thumb becomes an incredibly strong force (especially when
playing on the treble strings).
The two techniques also use different parts of the finger, it is
not
just where you put the thumb. With Thumb Under technique, you
will be
plucking with the underside of your fingers i-m-a (on the left
side of
the finger, when looking at the palm). With Thumb Over
technique, you
will be playing with the right end of the fingers i-m-a (when
looking
at the palm). The lutenists of the 17th century may have even
played
even farther off the finger (all the way on the side of the
finger, way
off the tip).
But really, it depends on what is comfortable for you. That is the
only thing that matters...
You can try on your guitar, doing thumb-index alternation on all
the
strings, and see which hand position is more comfortable for you.
What music do you want to play?
Hope this helps.
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:27 AM, <[1][email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
I have no trouble playing baroque guitar coming from single
string
guitar. For Baroque guitar I play with a relaxed tip joint and
a get
a broad enough contact point to play the courses just fine.
BTW, Nigel Norths hand position here:
[2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw
Looks alot like Post-Segovia guitar technique commonly taught
these
days.
Mark Delpriora
-----Original Message-----
From: vance wood <[3][email protected]>
To: Lute List > <[4][email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Just my opinion and not based on anything other than experience;
those
who made the switch in the Sixteenth-Century and beyond were
already
habituated toward a right hand approach that attacks both strings.
This is not the case with a person coming at the Lute from the
Guitar.
The right hand on the Guitar is concerned with a single contact
point,
in other words the target is smaller. When switching to the Lute
from
this mind set it is somewhat difficult to re-educate the fingers to
strike both strings, and the mind, to hear the difference and
respond
to it. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and play particular
attention,
in close ups, as to whether both strings in a course are engaged or
whether only one string in a course is activated. There are many
occasions where I see the latter.
----- Original Message ----- From: <[5][email protected]>
To: "Lute List" <[6][email protected]>; "howard posner"
<[7][email protected]>; "morgan cornwall"
<[8][email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Morgan,
--- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall <[9][email protected]>
wrote:
Question to all. If thumb-under assists in playing
the double courses simultaneously and without double
striking, how did the baroque lutenists (or Dowland for that
matter) avoid this problem when they switched to thumb-out?
Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart. Try thumb-under... if you
want to make your lute sound "dull and rotten" (Stobaeus) ;-) In
all
seriousness, I would advise you to give it a serious try. The
touch
and feel is considerably different than classical guitar style and
you'll probably like it. The majority of ren. players obviously
used
this technique and the music they left to us responds well with it.
Thumb-out can also be made to work and two strings can be
simultaneously struck just as effectively as with thumb-under,
but it
is generally more appropriate for music c.1600 and later. Also,
thumb-out is NOT the same as classical guitar technique: you'll
have to
spend a lot of time practicing real lute thumb-out. As the quote
from
Stobaeus above suggests, it seems the practitioners of thumb-out
had a
different tonal ideal in mind.
Chris
And thank you, Howard, for the comments.
----- Original Message ----- From: "howard posner" >
<[10][email protected]>
To: "Lute List" <[11][email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:20 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, morgan cornwall wrote:
I would like to make the best use of the time I
have. Given my
circumstances, would you recommend
that I learn thumb-under technique?
Does it make more sense to use this
technique from the start, or should
I focus on the other aspects of lute
technique? If I don't learn
thumb-under from the get go, will
this just be more to unlearn later?
Should I not even worry about using
thumb-under?
I remember some years ago, a lurker on the list named John
Dowland asked if he should change from thumb-under to
thumb-out technique, since everyone seemed to have been
switching, and he got a mixed bag of responses. I wish
I could forward them on to you, but it was more than 400
years ago and my email archives don't go back that
far; Stewart McCoy probably has them. I believe
Dowland made that change, or so Stobaeus tells us.
As for you, you should arrange your right hand so that it's
getting a full tone and not banging two strings of a course
together, which in turn involves striking the string from
the top, as if you're pushing them down toward the
soundboard. Your guitar technique will probably not
accomplish this. Resting the pinkie on the soundboard
is helpful in orienting the hand, so even if it feels odd at
first, you should try it. Experiment with whatever
works, and don't worry too much about where your thumb is,
unless it's interfering with your fingers.
My first lute teacher told me to try thumb-under for at
least a week or so, mostly to get me doing something
different from what I was used to, the theory being, I
suppose, that doing something farthest removed from my
established habits would minimize the transfer of
lute-inappropriate technique to the lute.
To get on or off this list see list information at
[12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
To get on or off this list see list information at
[13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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References
1. mailto:[email protected]
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw
3. mailto:[email protected]
4. mailto:[email protected]
5. mailto:[email protected]
6. mailto:[email protected]
7. mailto:[email protected]
8. mailto:[email protected]
9. mailto:[email protected]
10. mailto:[email protected]
11. mailto:[email protected]
12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. http://www.eset.com/
15. http://www.eset.com/
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