Yes, all of what you write is well known among educated guitarists.
A couple of points: 1) Llobet did not have Ginastera in mind, but for sure he had Broqua and Villa Lobos in mind . Development of the -a- finger is very important in modern literature: witness the pimami arpeggios in Etude 11 by Vill-Lobos ( a pattern used also in the 19th century). http://www.muslib.se/ebibliotek/boije/pdf/Boije%20258.pdf 2) Segovia occasionally played Tarrega's tremolo p-i-m-i. many other guitarists do also these days...those who find that their -a- finger is not up to the task. And indeed, Llobet turned Carcassi study 7 into a tremolo study. Llobet's Carcassi edition is somewhat analogous to Godowski's version of the Chopin Etudes. There is no point in comparing them to the original but knowledge of the original is required. Incidentally, Llobet's edition has been out of print a long time Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Mark, --- On Sun, 3/21/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > The right hand fingerings commonly > used by guitarists for the Carcassi studies are all derived > for Llobet's fingering. > Quite possibly, makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, Llobet did not become the standard in the last century and a cottage industry has grown up around these etudes. They have somehow become the vehicle for every Tom, Dick and Harry to promulgate his own private theories about right hand technique, no matter how awkward or bizarre - or inconsistent with the others. Modern guitarists would do well to investigate 19th century right hand technique. (I don't mean planting the pinky. It appears that this was already not an integral part of right hand technique in late baroque lute technique.) I mean the basic premise of placing the 'm' finger on the strong part of the beat, 'i' on the weak, and 'a' only where needed in arpeggios and preferably on weak accents. (Sor says to never use 'a' in a melody, but this is obviously impossible in some textures.) This won't hold in every context, but it makes a great fundamental principle. Try the famous A minor "tremolo" etude (No.7 in most editions) this way. Nearly all editions will have the opening repeated notes fingered p-a-m-i. I find that most students are easily able to get the first two measures quite fast only to struggle with tempo and fluidity once the arpeggio pattern comes in. Do just the first beat with p-i-m-i, however, and it can be consistently retained throughout all of the arpeggio sections and the greater majority of the piece. Indeed, this entire etude was obviously composed with the express goal of improving speed and facility with this right hand pattern. If this is not used, the whole point of the exercise has been subverted. One may, of course, play this etude with some other fingering, but then it ceases to be a real study with a defined pedagogical goal and simply becomes like any other repertoire piece. This is just one example. All of the Carcassi etudes have a similar basic premise based in some aspect of fairly consistently applied, codified technique. > > Instead, he fingered the Carcassi studies from the point of > view of Tarrega's technique on a modern instrument, > absolutely NOT from a 19th century guitar technique > perspective (Segovia did the same thing with some Sor > studies) Yet, curiously, the same thing has not happened for Sor as has for Carcassi. Although there are a few editions, the 20 Studies edited by Segovia is standard. (Segovia actually based his edition on versions of the studies by Napoleon Coste.) Although these etudes have the same issues as I mentioned in regard to the Carcassi above, they at least have the advantage that the edition is so widely used that everyone is playing the same thing. They also have the benefit of having been fingered by the most important guitarist of the 20th century, instead of X,Y, or Z. Example dialogue: TEACHER: Use the 'a' finger there. STUDENT: It feels kind of strange. Why 'a'? TEACHER: Because _Segovia_ wrote that 'a'! >...the fingerings point toward to the works of > Ponce,Broqua,Berkeley,Henze and Tippett and beyond. Not back > toward the 19h century and before. > Sure, the fingerings may point to what is needed for that repertoire, but Llobet didn't have Ginastera in mind when he edited Carcassi. So why impose that middle-ground fingering on a repertoire where its not appropriate - or, more importantly, I would argue, particularly productive? The Brouwer Etudes are a much better introduction to this repertoire's technical demands. Here one has the benefit of combining idiosyncratically 20th-century right hand patterns with harmonically appropriate (although fairly tame) left hand groupings in the proper rhythmic context. There are lots of other people who've written etudes in the 20th century, too. > > I learned much about modern guitar technique carefully > going through the Llobet edtion of the Carcassi studies when > I was a student: > Great! Llobet's a really important figure who only recently appears to be getting the attention he deserves. I did a research paper last year that examined his recordings. Chris > > > Below are the results of my work: > > > > http://www.stanleyyates.com/tambu.html > > > > http://www.delpriora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DoubleFantasySoundboard.pdf > > > > > http://www.delpriora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/fingering.pdf > > > > > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; > [email protected] > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:31 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > > > Mark, > > With thumb-under, such a string crossing may > very well be done p-i. Its > very much like playing with a plectrum in which a > downstroke on the 1st string > may need to be followed by an upstroke on the 6th. > The TU lute player actually > has an advantage over the pick player in that while the > thumb and forearm are > moving downwards, the index finger will cross the thumb and > can extend to > prepare for the upstroke. This is not very awkward > except perhaps in super fast > situations. Really no need for an m in there under > normal circumstances. The > cool thing about TU is that, once it is mastered, it is > very agile and requires > less thinking and planning than TO. Very elegant, > actually. > > This sort of thing is much more difficult to > do with TO/CG technique because > the index finger can not prepare for the leap since > attempting to do so will > only result in it curling up into the palm. Us TO > players have to do a lot more > tricks to navigate these passages. > > I'm playing a program of guitar duos with > a classical guitarist (i.e. no > early music training) right now. I happened to look > over at his part the other > day and noticed that his paper was filled with right hand > fingers. My music, > meanwhile, is totally devoid of any right hand > markings. Even though I don't > play much thumb-under anymore, (obviously not on guitar) I > credit a lot of that > freedom to my days playing TU. The principles of > weight distribution and metric > accent has allowed me to be much less self-conscious of > what the right hand is > doing. Its also made sight-reading easier. > > I'd better stop before I go into my rant > about how the the right hand > intentions of the widely-used Carcassi etudes have been > misunderstood, > misappropriated and bowdlerized in every single modern > edition... :) > > Chris > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, [email protected] > <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > From: [email protected] > <[email protected]> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under > technique? > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 2:45 PM > > Interesting! > > I taught Waltons's 5th Bagatelle yesterday and > > recommended p-i or p-m for the repeated notes on the > treble > > strings. > > > > You are right, A guitarist would probably not go from > > > string 1 with p to the 6th string with i. > > Would a lutenist? ...why not throw the m in > just > > before the string crossing? > > best, > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected]; > > [email protected]; > > [email protected] > > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 1:22 pm > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under > > technique? > > > > > > Mark, > > > > Yes, but they don't make a habit of it > in > > the same way. You'd never go from > > string 1 with p to the 6th string with i in CG. > > Nothing wrong with that, its > > just a different technique. > > > > I currently have a new lute student (an > > accomplished classical guitarist) who > > has no lute at the moment, but will be getting one > > shortly. Until then, we're > > just using his guitar. He wants to eventually > get > > into thumb under, but, by way > > of introduction, I'm having him begin simply by > playing > > pieces with thumb-index > > alternation, still using ordinary classical guitar > right > > hand positioning. It > > has been extremely difficult for him to NOT use his m > or a > > fingers in > > single-note lines, especially when a string crossing > or > > voice exchange is > > involved. This is simply a matter of habit for > > him. I think taking the time to > > be careful about this will actually help out his > guitar > > playing in the long run. > > Pat O'Brien's "Dalza" exercises are very helpful for > this > > and quite mind-opening > > for a lot of guitarists. > > > > Chris > > > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, [email protected] > > <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > From: [email protected] > > <[email protected]> > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under > > technique? > > > To: [email protected], > > [email protected] > > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 12:46 PM > > > That's not true ,modern guitarists > > > use their thumb on the treble strings. > > > It is a necessary skill for music by Rodrigo to > > Britten... > > > not to mention transcription (God forbid!) > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Paul Kieffer <[email protected]> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 12:15 pm > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under > > technique? > > > > > > > > > Morgan, > > > > > > I think most important thing is, as > > > mentioned above, plucking both > > > strings of each course, and plucking > the > > > strings as strong as you can > > > into the soundboard (this includes > with > > > the thumb as well). I think > > > classical guitarist aren't used to > using > > > the thumb on the treble > > > strings, but it is important in > lute > > > music. > > > > > > It can be done with both TO and TU > > > technique, and I think the best > > > thing would be to try for yourself > and > > > see what is best. The bottom > > > line is, If you develop a good > tone, > > > nobody will care what technique > > > you are using. The most > important > > > part is the tone. Have a tone that > > > people will envy. > > > > > > I personally think if you are > playing > > > repertoire like Dowland and > > > Laurencini, TO sounds a lot better > in > > the > > > long run, but it is difficult > > > and frustrating to learn. > Many > > > people find TU to be easier and more > > > comfortable for the hand (even > > > guitarists). > > > > > > TU will make your playing a lot > "faster" > > > and you will be able to play > > > rapid passagi and such...but in > music > > > like Dowland (and all music from > > > that time and after 1600), this > effect > > is > > > not desirable (in fact I > > > think they considered it hideous). > > > Playing extremely fast has become > > > popular the last few decades (sort > of > > > like speed metal). > > > > > > With TO your playing can become > > > incredibly loud, full, and refined. > > > And the thumb becomes an incredibly > > > strong force (especially when > > > playing on the treble strings). > > > > > > The two techniques also use > different > > > parts of the finger, it is not > > > just where you put the thumb. > With > > > Thumb Under technique, you will be > > > plucking with the underside of your > > > fingers i-m-a (on the left side of > > > the finger, when looking at the > > > palm). With Thumb Over technique, you > > > will be playing with the right end > of > > the > > > fingers i-m-a (when looking > > > at the palm). The lutenists of > the > > > 17th century may have even played > > > even farther off the finger (all the > way > > > on the side of the finger, way > > > off the tip). > > > > > > But really, it depends on what is > > > comfortable for you. That is the > > > only thing that matters.. > > > > > > You can try on your guitar, doing > > > thumb-index alternation on all the > > > strings, and see which hand position > is > > > more comfortable for you. > > > > > > What music do you want to play? > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:27 AM, > > > <[1][email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > I have no trouble > > playing baroque > > > guitar coming from single string > > > guitar. For Baroque guitar I > play > > > with a relaxed tip joint and a get > > > a broad enough contact point > to > > > play the courses just fine. > > > BTW, Nigel Norths hand > position > > > here: > > > [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw > > > Looks alot like Post-Segovia > > > guitar technique commonly taught these > > > days. > > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vance wood <[3][email protected]> > > > To: Lute List > <[4][email protected]> > > > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn > > > thumb-under technique? > > > Just my opinion and not based on > > anything > > > other than experience; those > > > who made the switch in the > > > Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already > > > habituated toward a right hand > approach > > > that attacks both strings. > > > This is not the case with a person > > coming > > > at the Lute from the Guitar. > > > The right hand on the > Guitar > > is concerned > > > with a single contact point, > > > in other words the target is > > > smaller. When switching to the Lute from > > > this mind set it is somewhat > difficult > > to > > > re-educate the fingers to > > > strike both strings, and the mind, > to > > > hear the difference and respond > > > to it. I watch a lot of > YouTube > > > videos and play particular attention, > > > in close ups, as to whether both > strings > > > in a course are engaged or > > > whether only one string in a course > is > > > activated. There are many > > > occasions where I see the latter. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > > > <[5][email protected]> > > > To: "Lute List" <[6][email protected]>; > > > "howard posner" > > > <[7][email protected]>; > > > "morgan cornwall" > > > <[8][email protected]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 > 10:55 PM > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn > > > thumb-under technique? > > > Morgan, > > > --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan > cornwall > > > <[9][email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Question to all. If > thumb-under > > > assists in playing > > > > the double courses > simultaneously > > > and without double > > > > striking, how did the baroque > > > lutenists (or Dowland for that > > > > matter) avoid this problem > when > > they > > > switched to thumb-out? > > > > > > > Ah, a subject near and dear to my > > > heart. Try thumb-under... if you > > > want to make your lute sound "dull > and > > > rotten" (Stobaeus) ;-) In all > > > seriousness, I would advise you to > give > > > it a serious try. The touch > > > and feel is considerably different > than > > > classical guitar style and > > > you'll probably like it. The > > > majority of ren. players obviously used > > > this technique and the music they > left > > to > > > us responds well with it. > > > Thumb-out can also be made to work > and > > > two strings can be > > > simultaneously struck just as > > effectively > > > as with thumb-under, but it > > > is generally more appropriate for > music > > > c.1600 and later. Also, > > > thumb-out is NOT the same as > classical > > > guitar technique: you'll have to > > > spend a lot of time practicing real > lute > > > thumb-out. As the quote from > > > Stobaeus above suggests, it seems > the > > > practitioners of thumb-out had a > > > different tonal ideal in mind. > > > Chris > > > > And thank you, Howard, for the > > > comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > > "howard posner" > > > > <[10][email protected]> > > > > To: "Lute List" <[11][email protected]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, > 2010 > > 8:20 > > > PM > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i > learn > > > thumb-under technique? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, > > morgan > > > cornwall wrote: > > > > > > > > > I would like to make the > best > > > use of the time I > > > > have. Given my > > > > > circumstances, would you > > > recommend > > > > that I learn thumb-under > technique? > > > > > Does it make more sense to > use > > > this > > > > technique from the start, or > should > > > > > I focus on the other > aspects > > of > > > lute > > > > technique? If I don't learn > > > > > thumb-under from the get > go, > > > will > > > > this just be more to unlearn > later? > > > > > Should I not even worry > about > > > using > > > > thumb-under? > > > > > > > > I remember some years ago, a > lurker > > > on the list named John > > > > Dowland asked if he should > change > > > from thumb-under to > > > > thumb-out technique, since > everyone > > > seemed to have been > > > > switching, and he got a mixed > bag > > of > > > responses. I wish > > > > I could forward them on to you, > but > > > it was more than 400 > > > > years ago and my email > archives > > > don't go back that > > > > far; Stewart McCoy probably > has > > > them. I believe > > > > Dowland made that change, or > so > > > Stobaeus tells us. > > > > > > > > As for you, you should arrange > your > > > right hand so that it's > > > > getting a full tone and not > banging > > > two strings of a course > > > > together, which in turn > involves > > > striking the string from > > > > the top, as if you're pushing > them > > > down toward the > > > > soundboard. Your guitar > technique > > > will probably not > > > > accomplish this. Resting the > pinkie > > > on the soundboard > > > > is helpful in orienting the > hand, > > so > > > even if it feels odd at > > > > first, you should try it. > > Experiment > > > with whatever > > > > works, and don't worry too > much > > > about where your thumb is, > > > > unless it's interfering with > your > > > fingers. > > > > > > > > My first lute teacher told me > to > > try > > > thumb-under for at > > > > least a week or so, mostly to > get > > me > > > doing something > > > > different from what I was used > to, > > > the theory being, I > > > > suppose, that doing something > > > farthest removed from my > > > > established habits would > minimize > > > the transfer of > > > > lute-inappropriate technique to > the > > > lute. > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see > list > > > information at > > > > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list > > > information at > > > [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > __________ Information from ESET > NOD32 > > > Antivirus, version of virus > > > signature database 4954 (20100318) > > > __________ > > > The message was checked by ESET > NOD32 > > > Antivirus. > > > [14]http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET > NOD32 > > > Antivirus, version of virus > > > signature database 4954 (20100318) > > > __________ > > > The message was checked by ESET > NOD32 > > > Antivirus. > > > [15]http://www.eset.com > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > References > > > > > > 1. mailto:[email protected] > > > 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw > > > 3. mailto:[email protected] > > > 4. mailto:[email protected] > > > 5. mailto:[email protected] > > > 6. mailto:[email protected] > > > 7. mailto:[email protected] > > > 8. mailto:[email protected] > > > 9. mailto:[email protected] > > > 10. mailto:[email protected] > > > 11. mailto:[email protected] > > > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 14. http://www.eset.com/ > > > 15. http://www.eset.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
