The right hand fingerings commonly used by guitarists for the Carcassi studies are all derived for Llobet's fingering.
Although Llobet wrote a few etudes,he did not write a comprehensive set of studies. Instead, he fingered the Carcassi studies from the point of view of Tarrega's technique on a modern instrument, absolutely NOT from a 19th century guitar technique perspective (Segovia did the same thing with some Sor studies)...the fingerings point toward to the works of Ponce,Broqua,Berkeley,Henze and Tippett and beyond. Not back toward the 19h century and before. I learned much about modern guitar technique carefully going through the Llobet edtion of the Carcassi studies when I was a student: Below are the results of my work: http://www.stanleyyates.com/tambu.html http://www.delpriora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DoubleFantasySoundboard.pdf http://www.delpriora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/fingering.pdf Mark Delpriora -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:31 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Mark, With thumb-under, such a string crossing may very well be done p-i. Its very much like playing with a plectrum in which a downstroke on the 1st string may need to be followed by an upstroke on the 6th. The TU lute player actually has an advantage over the pick player in that while the thumb and forearm are moving downwards, the index finger will cross the thumb and can extend to prepare for the upstroke. This is not very awkward except perhaps in super fast situations. Really no need for an m in there under normal circumstances. The cool thing about TU is that, once it is mastered, it is very agile and requires less thinking and planning than TO. Very elegant, actually. This sort of thing is much more difficult to do with TO/CG technique because the index finger can not prepare for the leap since attempting to do so will only result in it curling up into the palm. Us TO players have to do a lot more tricks to navigate these passages. I'm playing a program of guitar duos with a classical guitarist (i.e. no early music training) right now. I happened to look over at his part the other day and noticed that his paper was filled with right hand fingers. My music, meanwhile, is totally devoid of any right hand markings. Even though I don't play much thumb-under anymore, (obviously not on guitar) I credit a lot of that freedom to my days playing TU. The principles of weight distribution and metric accent has allowed me to be much less self-conscious of what the right hand is doing. Its also made sight-reading easier. I'd better stop before I go into my rant about how the the right hand intentions of the widely-used Carcassi etudes have been misunderstood, misappropriated and bowdlerized in every single modern edition... :) Chris --- On Thu, 3/18/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > To: [email protected] > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 2:45 PM > Interesting! > I taught Waltons's 5th Bagatelle yesterday and > recommended p-i or p-m for the repeated notes on the treble > strings. > > You are right, A guitarist would probably not go from > string 1 with p to the 6th string with i. > Would a lutenist? ...why not throw the m in just > before the string crossing? > best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; > [email protected]; > [email protected] > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 1:22 pm > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under > technique? > > > Mark, > > Yes, but they don't make a habit of it in > the same way. You'd never go from > string 1 with p to the 6th string with i in CG. > Nothing wrong with that, its > just a different technique. > > I currently have a new lute student (an > accomplished classical guitarist) who > has no lute at the moment, but will be getting one > shortly. Until then, we're > just using his guitar. He wants to eventually get > into thumb under, but, by way > of introduction, I'm having him begin simply by playing > pieces with thumb-index > alternation, still using ordinary classical guitar right > hand positioning. It > has been extremely difficult for him to NOT use his m or a > fingers in > single-note lines, especially when a string crossing or > voice exchange is > involved. This is simply a matter of habit for > him. I think taking the time to > be careful about this will actually help out his guitar > playing in the long run. > Pat O'Brien's "Dalza" exercises are very helpful for this > and quite mind-opening > for a lot of guitarists. > > Chris > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, [email protected] > <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > From: [email protected] > <[email protected]> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under > technique? > > To: [email protected], > [email protected] > > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 12:46 PM > > That's not true ,modern guitarists > > use their thumb on the treble strings. > > It is a necessary skill for music by Rodrigo to > Britten... > > not to mention transcription (God forbid!) > > > > > > Best, > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Kieffer <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 12:15 pm > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under > technique? > > > > > > Morgan, > > > > I think most important thing is, as > > mentioned above, plucking both > > strings of each course, and plucking the > > strings as strong as you can > > into the soundboard (this includes with > > the thumb as well). I think > > classical guitarist aren't used to using > > the thumb on the treble > > strings, but it is important in lute > > music. > > > > It can be done with both TO and TU > > technique, and I think the best > > thing would be to try for yourself and > > see what is best. The bottom > > line is, If you develop a good tone, > > nobody will care what technique > > you are using. The most important > > part is the tone. Have a tone that > > people will envy. > > > > I personally think if you are playing > > repertoire like Dowland and > > Laurencini, TO sounds a lot better in > the > > long run, but it is difficult > > and frustrating to learn. Many > > people find TU to be easier and more > > comfortable for the hand (even > > guitarists). > > > > TU will make your playing a lot "faster" > > and you will be able to play > > rapid passagi and such...but in music > > like Dowland (and all music from > > that time and after 1600), this effect > is > > not desirable (in fact I > > think they considered it hideous). > > Playing extremely fast has become > > popular the last few decades (sort of > > like speed metal). > > > > With TO your playing can become > > incredibly loud, full, and refined. > > And the thumb becomes an incredibly > > strong force (especially when > > playing on the treble strings). > > > > The two techniques also use different > > parts of the finger, it is not > > just where you put the thumb. With > > Thumb Under technique, you will be > > plucking with the underside of your > > fingers i-m-a (on the left side of > > the finger, when looking at the > > palm). With Thumb Over technique, you > > will be playing with the right end of > the > > fingers i-m-a (when looking > > at the palm). The lutenists of the > > 17th century may have even played > > even farther off the finger (all the way > > on the side of the finger, way > > off the tip). > > > > But really, it depends on what is > > comfortable for you. That is the > > only thing that matters.. > > > > You can try on your guitar, doing > > thumb-index alternation on all the > > strings, and see which hand position is > > more comfortable for you. > > > > What music do you want to play? > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:27 AM, > > <[1][email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I have no trouble > playing baroque > > guitar coming from single string > > guitar. For Baroque guitar I play > > with a relaxed tip joint and a get > > a broad enough contact point to > > play the courses just fine. > > BTW, Nigel Norths hand position > > here: > > [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw > > Looks alot like Post-Segovia > > guitar technique commonly taught these > > days. > > Mark Delpriora > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vance wood <[3][email protected]> > > To: Lute List > <[4][email protected]> > > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn > > thumb-under technique? > > Just my opinion and not based on > anything > > other than experience; those > > who made the switch in the > > Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already > > habituated toward a right hand approach > > that attacks both strings. > > This is not the case with a person > coming > > at the Lute from the Guitar. > > The right hand on the Guitar > is concerned > > with a single contact point, > > in other words the target is > > smaller. When switching to the Lute from > > this mind set it is somewhat difficult > to > > re-educate the fingers to > > strike both strings, and the mind, to > > hear the difference and respond > > to it. I watch a lot of YouTube > > videos and play particular attention, > > in close ups, as to whether both strings > > in a course are engaged or > > whether only one string in a course is > > activated. There are many > > occasions where I see the latter. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > > <[5][email protected]> > > To: "Lute List" <[6][email protected]>; > > "howard posner" > > <[7][email protected]>; > > "morgan cornwall" > > <[8][email protected]> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn > > thumb-under technique? > > Morgan, > > --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall > > <[9][email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > Question to all. If thumb-under > > assists in playing > > > the double courses simultaneously > > and without double > > > striking, how did the baroque > > lutenists (or Dowland for that > > > matter) avoid this problem when > they > > switched to thumb-out? > > > > > Ah, a subject near and dear to my > > heart. Try thumb-under... if you > > want to make your lute sound "dull and > > rotten" (Stobaeus) ;-) In all > > seriousness, I would advise you to give > > it a serious try. The touch > > and feel is considerably different than > > classical guitar style and > > you'll probably like it. The > > majority of ren. players obviously used > > this technique and the music they left > to > > us responds well with it. > > Thumb-out can also be made to work and > > two strings can be > > simultaneously struck just as > effectively > > as with thumb-under, but it > > is generally more appropriate for music > > c.1600 and later. Also, > > thumb-out is NOT the same as classical > > guitar technique: you'll have to > > spend a lot of time practicing real lute > > thumb-out. As the quote from > > Stobaeus above suggests, it seems the > > practitioners of thumb-out had a > > different tonal ideal in mind. > > Chris > > > And thank you, Howard, for the > > comments. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > > "howard posner" > > > <[10][email protected]> > > > To: "Lute List" <[11][email protected]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 > 8:20 > > PM > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn > > thumb-under technique? > > > > > > > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, > morgan > > cornwall wrote: > > > > > > > I would like to make the best > > use of the time I > > > have. Given my > > > > circumstances, would you > > recommend > > > that I learn thumb-under technique? > > > > Does it make more sense to use > > this > > > technique from the start, or should > > > > I focus on the other aspects > of > > lute > > > technique? If I don't learn > > > > thumb-under from the get go, > > will > > > this just be more to unlearn later? > > > > Should I not even worry about > > using > > > thumb-under? > > > > > > I remember some years ago, a lurker > > on the list named John > > > Dowland asked if he should change > > from thumb-under to > > > thumb-out technique, since everyone > > seemed to have been > > > switching, and he got a mixed bag > of > > responses. I wish > > > I could forward them on to you, but > > it was more than 400 > > > years ago and my email archives > > don't go back that > > > far; Stewart McCoy probably has > > them. I believe > > > Dowland made that change, or so > > Stobaeus tells us. > > > > > > As for you, you should arrange your > > right hand so that it's > > > getting a full tone and not banging > > two strings of a course > > > together, which in turn involves > > striking the string from > > > the top, as if you're pushing them > > down toward the > > > soundboard. Your guitar technique > > will probably not > > > accomplish this. Resting the pinkie > > on the soundboard > > > is helpful in orienting the hand, > so > > even if it feels odd at > > > first, you should try it. > Experiment > > with whatever > > > works, and don't worry too much > > about where your thumb is, > > > unless it's interfering with your > > fingers. > > > > > > My first lute teacher told me to > try > > thumb-under for at > > > least a week or so, mostly to get > me > > doing something > > > different from what I was used to, > > the theory being, I > > > suppose, that doing something > > farthest removed from my > > > established habits would minimize > > the transfer of > > > lute-inappropriate technique to the > > lute. > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list > > information at > > > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list > > information at > > [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 > > Antivirus, version of virus > > signature database 4954 (20100318) > > __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 > > Antivirus. > > [14]http://www.eset.com > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 > > Antivirus, version of virus > > signature database 4954 (20100318) > > __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 > > Antivirus. > > [15]http://www.eset.com > > -- > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. mailto:[email protected] > > 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw > > 3. mailto:[email protected] > > 4. mailto:[email protected] > > 5. mailto:[email protected] > > 6. mailto:[email protected] > > 7. mailto:[email protected] > > 8. mailto:[email protected] > > 9. mailto:[email protected] > > 10. mailto:[email protected] > > 11. mailto:[email protected] > > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 14. http://www.eset.com/ > > 15. http://www.eset.com/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
