I forgot to mention that the name of the mandolin player is Mauro Squillante.
Here is the video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: > Stuart Walsh wrote: >>> >> >> >> I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the instrument >> fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with a plectrum >> the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, in a >> previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings at >> that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they do. So >> the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or guitar or >> wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use at all - it >> would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. > > Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an Alemanda > by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! Sounds forceful > and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. Nails? > > Stuart > > > >> >> Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but he >> seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like >> early guitar or lute technique. >> >> )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk playing >> with plectra too.) >> >> So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction that >> enables players to use punteado style successfully? >> >> I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played (punteado) - >> mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, plectrum, with other >> instruments?? >> >> >> Stuart >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>>> Behalf Of Susanne Herre >>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM >>>> To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin >>>> >>>> Thank you Eugene! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a mandolin >>>> player at all? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher harmonics >>>> because the section which hits the string is not as large as if you >>>> play with your finger... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of one >>>> course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens >>>> automatically, I made this experience as well. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Susanne >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV >>>> >>>> To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List >>>> >>>> Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin >>>> >>>> I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era iconography >>>> that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. If >>>> it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think plectrum >>>> use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy >>>> iconography. >>>> I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern >>>> Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so I >>>> am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable >>>> volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using quill, >>>> I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That >>>> said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. >>>> Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to >>>> technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on same) >>>> until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for >>>> Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. >>>> Best, >>>> Eugene >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Susanne Herre <mandolinens...@web.de> >>>> Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am >>>> Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin >>>> To: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>, Lute List >>>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> > >>>> > Dear Davide, >>>> > >>>> > Thank you for your comments! >>>> > >>>> > I still think we can not be so sure about certain things because >>>> > we don't >>>> > have much evidence. >>>> > >>>> > > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it >>>> > could be played >>>> > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. >>>> > >>>> > Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in operas? >>>> > It is possible to play with a quill... >>>> > >>>> > I know about some paintings which show the finger technique (all >>>> > in all we >>>> > don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture (English) >>>> > where there >>>> > seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture >>>> > without any >>>> > year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there is >>>> > a quill and >>>> > I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this >>>> > picture is >>>> > played with it... >>>> > >>>> > I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the >>>> > loudness of >>>> > different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also >>>> > depends on >>>> > different acoustics (as I would use different bows in different >>>> > concert >>>> > rooms) >>>> > But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the >>>> > sound will >>>> > maybe go easier to the >>>> > listeners. But it is interesting to read about your experience! >>>> > >>>> > I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who says >>>> > that playing >>>> > with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill? >>>> > If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy... >>>> > I was just considering that there were persons who maybe played >>>> > the mandolin >>>> > but not the lute or the theorbo. >>>> > >>>> > For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility, >>>> > "maybe". It is >>>> > just a theory as all is what we try to find out. >>>> > >>>> > I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a diversity >>>> > of things >>>> > and not as much standarts as today that we would be surprised >>>> > what is >>>> > possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to the >>>> > early times >>>> > ; ) >>>> > >>>> > fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more easy, >>>> > sound is more >>>> > smooth >>>> > quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, sound >>>> > is more >>>> > bright >>>> > So we try to use the advantages of the techniques. The more >>>> > possibilities we >>>> > have, the better... >>>> > >>>> > Yes I also think that in general it is easier to play fast >>>> > scales with thumb >>>> > and index. But some things are easier to do with middle >>>> > finger... So I think >>>> > the best is maybe a combination. >>>> > >>>> > If we look at Weiss he didn't use much the alternation of thumb >>>> > and index, >>>> > did he? >>>> > So I don't think the techniques are exactly the same because the >>>> > mandolinhas other musical tasks and really less strings... ; ) >>>> > >>>> > I agree with you about "milanese", "lombardo" etc. but I'm tired >>>> > of talking >>>> > about that... ; ) >>>> > >>>> > But I think the nomenclature of "mandolino" and "mandolin" >>>> > is also not very >>>> > helpful because it is only a question of the language... >>>> > At the moment I prefer "baroque mandolin" and "neapolitan >>>> mandolin". >>>> > >>>> > I really would like to see and hear your playing! Please tell me >>>> > when you >>>> > will be playing near Cologne or do you have any video etc...? >>>> > And please tell me how your book is developing. >>>> > >>>> > Kind regards and thanks! >>>> > >>>> > Susanne >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > From: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> >>>> > To: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> >>>> > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:56 PM >>>> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy >>>> > 18th century >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > Dear Susanne, >>>> > > >>>> > > thanks for your email and your suggestions. >>>> > > First of all I would say that while there is evidence that >>>> baroque >>>> > > mandolino was played with finger tips ( music, iconography) >>>> > > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it >>>> > could be played >>>> > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. >>>> > > >>>> > > My experience is just the opposite of what Edward Martin wrote >>>> > and I >>>> > > wonder if he performed with a baroque orchestra or a modern >>>> > one or if he >>>> > > used modern plectrums. >>>> > > By the way I would suggest everyboby to stop using the term >>>> > mandolino> LOMBARDO or MILANESE which is a modern (XIX th >>>> > century) term referred to >>>> > > the 6 single string mandoline that developed and was played in >>>> > the XIX >>>> > > century untill the beginning of the XX century ( played with a >>>> > cherrybark> plectrum). >>>> > > It is a very common mistake also here in Italy ( museums, >>>> exhibition >>>> > > catalogues, mandoline makers ect....) very misleading. >>>> > > When I started playing the baroque mandolino, more than 20 >>>> > years ago - >>>> > > having previously played the neapolitan with the plectrum - I >>>> > thought just >>>> > > like you and I tried to play chamber music with a quill >>>> > for some pieces >>>> > > which didin't require fingers for polyphonic passages, because >>>> > I thought >>>> > > it could be louder, but then I realized it is not. >>>> > > I also tried to play the same piece in a concert or concert- >>>> > lecture using >>>> > > the two different tecniques and every body ( musicians, >>>> > audience,> instrument makers...) noticed that if you play >>>> > with fingers it is much >>>> > > louder and sounds better than with any plectrum plectrum. >>>> > > Apart form the loudness you cannot compare the quality >>>> > of sound you get >>>> > > with finger tips. >>>> > > Unless you have a bad instrument you will agree, if you try.( >>>> > I read you >>>> > > have an Hasenfuss so I suppose it is good and loud enough) >>>> > > The mandolino plucked with finger tips is very loud, louder >>>> > than a >>>> > > neapolitan or genovese mandoline played with historical quills; >>>> > > I play many different original mandolini made in the XVIII >>>> > century, with a >>>> > > low string tension, from different makers and different string >>>> > lenght as >>>> > > well as copies and I never had any problems of volume >>>> > performing with >>>> > > baroque orchestra in a theatre. >>>> > > So I really cannot understand whay you say that for cahmber >>>> > music they >>>> > > needed the plectrum, and why XVII and XVIII century amateurs >>>> > should have >>>> > > used a tecnique which was more difficult and that nobody >>>> > used,except,> maybe, folk musicians on other instruments. >>>> > > I'm sure you know (and tried )that fast arpeggios are >>>> > much more difficult >>>> > > with the plectrum than with finger tips. >>>> > > The sound is brighter but not louder with plectrum. It could >>>> > almost be the >>>> > > same if you use a modern thick plectrum ( as unfortunatly many >>>> > mandolin> players do) >>>> > > but if you try with a quill it is not loud at all. >>>> > > >>>> > > The professional mandolin player did not exist before the >>>> neapolitan >>>> > > mandoline became popular, and there is evedence that many >>>> > theorbists and >>>> > > lute player played the mandolino and composed music for it. Of >>>> > course they >>>> > > played with the only tecnique they knew. >>>> > > Everything is possible in theory but you do not have any >>>> > evidence to say >>>> > > the contrary, do you? >>>> > > >>>> > > Anyway the main question is that most of the music suvived ( >>>> > staff and >>>> > > tablature) requires the use of the fingers (not only the very >>>> > few solo >>>> > > pieces) because is not entirely nonodic and unless you don't >>>> > change the >>>> > > chords positions or arpeggios ( as we have evidence looking at >>>> the >>>> > > corrections that XVIII century players did in some pieces). >>>> > > Besides I don't think that a lutenist/ thoerbist would'nt have >>>> > add some >>>> > > harmony playing a piece written in a single monodic line). >>>> > > >>>> > > You are right when you say that "there is no evidence the >>>> playing >>>> > >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could also >>>> > have been >>>> > >> middle plus index or a mixture..."> >>>> > > Index and medium could be possible, can you do it in very fast >>>> > scales on a >>>> > > mandolino? >>>> > > I can't and I can tell you that Nigel North and Paul O'Dette >>>> > told me they >>>> > > cannot either or at least they decided to use thumb and index. >>>> > > I think we can use all the right hand fingerings we find in >>>> > contemporary> lute pieces (like Weiss tablatures ) and just >>>> > think we have a very small >>>> > > (but loud) lute in our hands. >>>> > > We need more lute players to try the fingerstyle baroque >>>> > mandolino and >>>> > > experiment different lute tecniques on it. >>>> > > By the way I starded to write a book on the early mandolino >>>> > and mandolin >>>> > > so I'm very interested in collecting new ideas on this >>>> > subject and to >>>> > > learn from anybody if there is evidence. >>>> > > >>>> > > Best wishes, >>>> > > >>>> > > Davide >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> >>>> > > To: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>; "Lute List" >>>> > > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:04 PM >>>> > > Subject: Fw: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy >>>> > 18th century >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Dear Davide, >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Thanks! >>>> > >> >>>> > >> About the use of the quill: I think we can't be sure if they >>>> > didn't use >>>> > >> it >>>> > >> before the neapolitan mandolin became popular. The lute in >>>> > middle ages >>>> > >> was >>>> > >> also played with a quill as well as the mandore in the >>>> > renaissance. The >>>> > >> quill could have been very useful in chamber music and opera. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> I don't think that ALL mandolin players where also lute and >>>> theorbo >>>> > >> players. >>>> > >> There were also amateurs who maybe not played the lute or >>>> > theorbo. Or >>>> > >> maybe >>>> > >> professionel people who just played mandolin, or, or... >>>> > >> >>>> > >> And as there is no evidence we can't generally say that the >>>> playing >>>> > >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could also >>>> > have been >>>> > >> middle plus index or a mixture... >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Don't you think? >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Best wishes, >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Susanne >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > >>> From: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> >>>> > >>> To: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> >>>> > >>> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:29 PM >>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in >>>> > italy 18th >>>> > >>> century >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> Dear Susanne >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> the baroque mandolino ( 4, 5, 6 course) was played with >>>> > finger tips at >>>> > >>>> least untill the middle of the XVIII century: >>>> > >>>> Afterwards, as the roman and neapolitan mandolines >>>> > became popular, >>>> > >>>> they >>>> > >>>> started playing the six course tuned in fourths also with >>>> > the plectrum, >>>> > >>>> Always thumb out like the baroque lute because all the >>>> mandolino >>>> > >>>> palyers >>>> > >>>> were acyuaslly lute and theorbo players. Thum and index >>>> > alternated for >>>> > >>>> fast >>>> > >>>> notes, arpeggios and 2 or 3 notes chords with thumb out. >>>> > >>>> In case you are interested I have a class of baroque >>>> > mandolino in >>>> > >>>> Vicenza, >>>> > >>>> Italy, which is the only one in Italy and one of the very >>>> > few in >>>> > >>>> Europe. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> I hope this may help, >>>> > >>>> Best regards, >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Davide >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > >>>> From: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> >>>> > >>>> To: "Lute List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:45 PM >>>> > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy >>>> > 18th century >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> Dear Lute Wisdom, >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> It would be great if you could help me. I'm >>>> > doing some research on >>>> > >>>>> the baroque mandolin. >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> I would like to know which italian baroque >>>> > music for lute >>>> > >>>>> instruments do we have from the first half of >>>> > the 18th century? >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> Which composers are represented? >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> Which kinds of instruments are preferred? >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> What is known about playing technique? More >>>> > "thumb-in" or >>>> > >>>>> "thumb-out"? >>>> > >>>>> "Two-voice-chords"- how will they be played? >>>> > How high is the thumb >>>> > >>>>> going? >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> Susanne >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> -- >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> > >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >> >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu >>>> 2. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de >>>> 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> 4. mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > >
