Hey, mandolinists have little enough music! Tell that guitarist to give it back!
Semi-kiddingly, Eugene > -----Original Message----- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 5:12 AM > To: Alfonso Marin > Cc: lutelist Net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > > Alfonso Marin wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Talking about baroque mandolins: > > > > Last year I played Vivaldi's oratorio "Juditha Triumphans" with the > "Venice Baroque Orchestra". There is an aria with a mandolin solo. The > concert at the Concertgebouw Hall in Amsterdam was broadcasted live for > the Dutch Television channel CULTURA and someone placed it on youtube. > > > > On this video you can listen to the mandolin aria (Transit aetas): > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfpYO8_j5w > > > > > Very fine and sensitive playing (and singing, of course). But you are > playing with a plectrum, not fingerstyle? > > The related videos on this youtube page brought this up, which is > punteado, but not mandolin: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdb3vLJuZk8&feature=related > > The director chooses the camera with a close-up of the pizzicato violin > far too much! But the mandolin part is played on a Baroque guitar with a > capo. The guitarist seems to be using the thumb a lot. Is it p-i for > scalar passges? Or is it a re-entrant arrangement (thumb on the lower > strings but playing an octave higher.) Anyway, sounds nice too. > > > Stuart > > > > > > > There is also an aria (O servi volate) with 4 THEORBOS (obligato): > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA4EoGHmX7A > > > > (We are 4 bold lute players!!) > > > > These are not lute-mandolin related but very nice to listen to (still > many lutes as continuo): > > > > Armatae face (after the recitative it gets really interesting!!!!!): > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLfL9szlgMs > > > > Arma, caedes, vindictae: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU126YcSHEc > > > > Gaude felix : > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ius18luTA > > > > Matrona Inimica: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRhfwDM8v0k > > > > On May 27, 2010, at 11:21 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: > > > > > >> Stuart Walsh wrote: > >> > >>> I just can't imagine how you get a loud, full sound playing the > instrument fingerstyle when the instrument has such a tiny body. (But with > a plectrum the instrument truly chirps). I think it was Stewart McCoy who, > in a previous discussion of this same subject, said that mandolino strings > at that short string length are going to feel like steel bars...and they > do. So the technique of getting a sound from the strings of a lute or > guitar or wire-string instrument (e.g. English guitar) wouldn't be any use > at all - it would surely be far too gentle? Well, not for me, anyway. > >>> > >> Well I came across this youtube video of Alex Timmerman playing an > Alemanda by Ceccherini (it's also in Tyler's book). Played with gusto! > Sounds forceful and loud - and punteado/fingerstyle. Dunno how he does it. > Nails? > >> > >> Stuart > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Jake Shimabukuro (modern uke virtuoso) gets a great, full sound but > he seems to have an odd technique based around the RH thumb - nothing like > early guitar or lute technique. > >>> > >>> )All those medieval depictions of gitterns have the celestial folk > playing with plectra too.) > >>> > >>> So what 's the secret? Nails? Or some unusual aspect of construction > that enables players to use punteado style successfully? > >>> > >>> I'd be really interested to hear/see the instrument played > (punteado) - mp3, youtube, anything. A little demo - with fingers, > plectrum, with other instruments?? > >>> > >>> > >>> Stuart > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > On > >>>>> Behalf Of Susanne Herre > >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 6:38 AM > >>>>> To: EUGENE BRAIG IV; Lute List > >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you Eugene! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Is there in fact any iconography of baroque opera showing a > mandolin > >>>>> player at all? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, if you play with the quill you will hear more higher > harmonics > >>>>> because the section which hits the string is not as large as if > you > >>>>> play with your finger... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, if you play with thumb-out and want to hit both strings of > one > >>>>> course you have to play also with a bit of your nail. That happens > >>>>> automatically, I made this experience as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> All the best, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Susanne > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > >>>>> From: [1]EUGENE BRAIG IV > >>>>> > >>>>> To: [2]Susanne Herre ; [3]Lute List > >>>>> > >>>>> Cc: [4]davide.rebuffa > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 3:35 AM > >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree with Davide. I'm just aware of no baroque-era > iconography > >>>>> that implies plectra/quills on 4th-tuned, gut strung mandolins. > If > >>>>> it were common in the pit for obligati parts, I would think > plectrum > >>>>> use would be at least occasionally evident in the sketchy > >>>>> iconography. > >>>>> I also use quills and more modern plectra on early and modern > >>>>> Neapolitan mandolins, even on a gut-strung mandolino Toscano, so > I > >>>>> am accustomed to using plectra. I don't really gain appreciable > >>>>> volume applying quill to my 6-course mandolin/o, but in using > quill, > >>>>> I do lose any bass response I get by using my fingertips. That > >>>>> said, I use a combination of flesh and nail on my mandolin/o. > >>>>> Again, I'm just not aware of any good written references to > >>>>> technique on 4th-tuned mandolins (or reference to quill use on > same) > >>>>> until they get only peripheral mention in the literature for > >>>>> Neapolitan mandolins of the latter half of the 1700s. > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> Eugene > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: Susanne Herre <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>>> Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010 3:00 am > >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] playing technique of baroque mandolin > >>>>> To: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>, Lute List > >>>>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Dear Davide, > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Thank you for your comments! > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I still think we can not be so sure about certain things > because > >>>>> > we don't > >>>>> > have much evidence. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it > >>>>> > could be played > >>>>> > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Do you have any evidence against quill technique e.g. in > operas? > >>>>> > It is possible to play with a quill... > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I know about some paintings which show the finger technique > (all > >>>>> > in all we > >>>>> > don't have much, have we?) but I also saw one picture > (English) > >>>>> > where there > >>>>> > seems to be a kind of plectrum. But it is an anonymous picture > >>>>> > without any > >>>>> > year. Also I have seen a still life by Baschenis where there > is > >>>>> > a quill and > >>>>> > I don't believe that the violin, the harp or the lute on this > >>>>> > picture is > >>>>> > played with it... > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I can't say that I have much experience of comparing the > >>>>> > loudness of > >>>>> > different playing techniques with an audience. This maybe also > >>>>> > depends on > >>>>> > different acoustics (as I would use different bows in > different > >>>>> > concert > >>>>> > rooms) > >>>>> > But I think you get a brighter sound with a quill amd then the > >>>>> > sound will > >>>>> > maybe go easier to the > >>>>> > listeners. But it is interesting to read about your > experience! > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I didn't say that amteurs used finger techniques and who says > >>>>> > that playing > >>>>> > with fingers is more complex than playing with a quill? > >>>>> > If you would like to do it very well it is both not easy... > >>>>> > I was just considering that there were persons who maybe > played > >>>>> > the mandolin > >>>>> > but not the lute or the theorbo. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > For the use of the quill I say it could be a possibility, > >>>>> > "maybe". It is > >>>>> > just a theory as all is what we try to find out. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I think in the 17th and 18th century there was such a > diversity > >>>>> > of things > >>>>> > and not as much standarts as today that we would be surprised > >>>>> > what is > >>>>> > possible if we would have the chance to make a journey to the > >>>>> > early times > >>>>> > ; ) > >>>>> > > >>>>> > fingers: fast scales are more difficult, arpeggios more easy, > >>>>> > sound is more > >>>>> > smooth > >>>>> > quill: arpeggio is more difficult, fast scales mire easy, > sound > >>>>> > is more > >>>>> > bright > >>>>> > So we try to use the advantages of the techniques. The more > >>>>> > possibilities we > >>>>> > have, the better... > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Yes I also think that in general it is easier to play fast > >>>>> > scales with thumb > >>>>> > and index. But some things are easier to do with middle > >>>>> > finger... So I think > >>>>> > the best is maybe a combination. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > If we look at Weiss he didn't use much the alternation of > thumb > >>>>> > and index, > >>>>> > did he? > >>>>> > So I don't think the techniques are exactly the same because > the > >>>>> > mandolinhas other musical tasks and really less strings... ; ) > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I agree with you about "milanese", "lombardo" etc. but I'm > tired > >>>>> > of talking > >>>>> > about that... ; ) > >>>>> > > >>>>> > But I think the nomenclature of "mandolino" and "mandolin" > >>>>> > is also not very > >>>>> > helpful because it is only a question of the language... > >>>>> > At the moment I prefer "baroque mandolin" and "neapolitan > >>>>> mandolin". > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I really would like to see and hear your playing! Please tell > me > >>>>> > when you > >>>>> > will be playing near Cologne or do you have any video etc...? > >>>>> > And please tell me how your book is developing. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Kind regards and thanks! > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Susanne > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > From: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> > >>>>> > To: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:56 PM > >>>>> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy > >>>>> > 18th century > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Dear Susanne, > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > thanks for your email and your suggestions. > >>>>> > > First of all I would say that while there is evidence that > >>>>> baroque > >>>>> > > mandolino was played with finger tips ( music, iconography) > >>>>> > > - to my knowledge - there is no evidence at all that it > >>>>> > could be played > >>>>> > > with a quill before the late XVIIIth century. > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > My experience is just the opposite of what Edward Martin > wrote > >>>>> > and I > >>>>> > > wonder if he performed with a baroque orchestra or a modern > >>>>> > one or if he > >>>>> > > used modern plectrums. > >>>>> > > By the way I would suggest everyboby to stop using the term > >>>>> > mandolino> LOMBARDO or MILANESE which is a modern (XIX th > >>>>> > century) term referred to > >>>>> > > the 6 single string mandoline that developed and was played > in > >>>>> > the XIX > >>>>> > > century untill the beginning of the XX century ( played with > a > >>>>> > cherrybark> plectrum). > >>>>> > > It is a very common mistake also here in Italy ( museums, > >>>>> exhibition > >>>>> > > catalogues, mandoline makers ect....) very misleading. > >>>>> > > When I started playing the baroque mandolino, more than 20 > >>>>> > years ago - > >>>>> > > having previously played the neapolitan with the plectrum - > I > >>>>> > thought just > >>>>> > > like you and I tried to play chamber music with a quill > >>>>> > for some pieces > >>>>> > > which didin't require fingers for polyphonic passages, > because > >>>>> > I thought > >>>>> > > it could be louder, but then I realized it is not. > >>>>> > > I also tried to play the same piece in a concert or concert- > >>>>> > lecture using > >>>>> > > the two different tecniques and every body ( musicians, > >>>>> > audience,> instrument makers...) noticed that if you play > >>>>> > with fingers it is much > >>>>> > > louder and sounds better than with any plectrum plectrum. > >>>>> > > Apart form the loudness you cannot compare the quality > >>>>> > of sound you get > >>>>> > > with finger tips. > >>>>> > > Unless you have a bad instrument you will agree, if you > try.( > >>>>> > I read you > >>>>> > > have an Hasenfuss so I suppose it is good and loud enough) > >>>>> > > The mandolino plucked with finger tips is very loud, louder > >>>>> > than a > >>>>> > > neapolitan or genovese mandoline played with historical > quills; > >>>>> > > I play many different original mandolini made in the XVIII > >>>>> > century, with a > >>>>> > > low string tension, from different makers and different > string > >>>>> > lenght as > >>>>> > > well as copies and I never had any problems of volume > >>>>> > performing with > >>>>> > > baroque orchestra in a theatre. > >>>>> > > So I really cannot understand whay you say that for cahmber > >>>>> > music they > >>>>> > > needed the plectrum, and why XVII and XVIII century amateurs > >>>>> > should have > >>>>> > > used a tecnique which was more difficult and that nobody > >>>>> > used,except,> maybe, folk musicians on other instruments. > >>>>> > > I'm sure you know (and tried )that fast arpeggios are > >>>>> > much more difficult > >>>>> > > with the plectrum than with finger tips. > >>>>> > > The sound is brighter but not louder with plectrum. It could > >>>>> > almost be the > >>>>> > > same if you use a modern thick plectrum ( as unfortunatly > many > >>>>> > mandolin> players do) > >>>>> > > but if you try with a quill it is not loud at all. > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > The professional mandolin player did not exist before the > >>>>> neapolitan > >>>>> > > mandoline became popular, and there is evedence that many > >>>>> > theorbists and > >>>>> > > lute player played the mandolino and composed music for it. > Of > >>>>> > course they > >>>>> > > played with the only tecnique they knew. > >>>>> > > Everything is possible in theory but you do not have any > >>>>> > evidence to say > >>>>> > > the contrary, do you? > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > Anyway the main question is that most of the music suvived ( > >>>>> > staff and > >>>>> > > tablature) requires the use of the fingers (not only the > very > >>>>> > few solo > >>>>> > > pieces) because is not entirely nonodic and unless you don't > >>>>> > change the > >>>>> > > chords positions or arpeggios ( as we have evidence looking > at > >>>>> the > >>>>> > > corrections that XVIII century players did in some pieces). > >>>>> > > Besides I don't think that a lutenist/ thoerbist would'nt > have > >>>>> > add some > >>>>> > > harmony playing a piece written in a single monodic line). > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > You are right when you say that "there is no evidence the > >>>>> playing > >>>>> > >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could > also > >>>>> > have been > >>>>> > >> middle plus index or a mixture..."> > >>>>> > > Index and medium could be possible, can you do it in very > fast > >>>>> > scales on a > >>>>> > > mandolino? > >>>>> > > I can't and I can tell you that Nigel North and Paul O'Dette > >>>>> > told me they > >>>>> > > cannot either or at least they decided to use thumb and > index. > >>>>> > > I think we can use all the right hand fingerings we find in > >>>>> > contemporary> lute pieces (like Weiss tablatures ) and just > >>>>> > think we have a very small > >>>>> > > (but loud) lute in our hands. > >>>>> > > We need more lute players to try the fingerstyle baroque > >>>>> > mandolino and > >>>>> > > experiment different lute tecniques on it. > >>>>> > > By the way I starded to write a book on the early mandolino > >>>>> > and mandolin > >>>>> > > so I'm very interested in collecting new ideas on this > >>>>> > subject and to > >>>>> > > learn from anybody if there is evidence. > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > Best wishes, > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > Davide > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > > From: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>>> > > To: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it>; "Lute > List" > >>>>> > > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>>>> > > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:04 PM > >>>>> > > Subject: Fw: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in > italy > >>>>> > 18th century > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> Dear Davide, > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> Thanks! > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> About the use of the quill: I think we can't be sure if > they > >>>>> > didn't use > >>>>> > >> it > >>>>> > >> before the neapolitan mandolin became popular. The lute in > >>>>> > middle ages > >>>>> > >> was > >>>>> > >> also played with a quill as well as the mandore in the > >>>>> > renaissance. The > >>>>> > >> quill could have been very useful in chamber music and > opera. > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> I don't think that ALL mandolin players where also lute and > >>>>> theorbo > >>>>> > >> players. > >>>>> > >> There were also amateurs who maybe not played the lute or > >>>>> > theorbo. Or > >>>>> > >> maybe > >>>>> > >> professionel people who just played mandolin, or, or... > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> And as there is no evidence we can't generally say that the > >>>>> playing > >>>>> > >> technique will be thumb and index in fast scales. Could > also > >>>>> > have been > >>>>> > >> middle plus index or a mixture... > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> Don't you think? > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> Best wishes, > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> Susanne > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > >>> From: "davide.rebuffa" <davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it> > >>>>> > >>> To: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>>> > >>> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:29 PM > >>>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in > >>>>> > italy 18th > >>>>> > >>> century > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>>> Dear Susanne > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> the baroque mandolino ( 4, 5, 6 course) was played with > >>>>> > finger tips at > >>>>> > >>>> least untill the middle of the XVIII century: > >>>>> > >>>> Afterwards, as the roman and neapolitan mandolines > >>>>> > became popular, > >>>>> > >>>> they > >>>>> > >>>> started playing the six course tuned in fourths also with > >>>>> > the plectrum, > >>>>> > >>>> Always thumb out like the baroque lute because all the > >>>>> mandolino > >>>>> > >>>> palyers > >>>>> > >>>> were acyuaslly lute and theorbo players. Thum and index > >>>>> > alternated for > >>>>> > >>>> fast > >>>>> > >>>> notes, arpeggios and 2 or 3 notes chords with thumb out. > >>>>> > >>>> In case you are interested I have a class of baroque > >>>>> > mandolino in > >>>>> > >>>> Vicenza, > >>>>> > >>>> Italy, which is the only one in Italy and one of the very > >>>>> > few in > >>>>> > >>>> Europe. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> I hope this may help, > >>>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Davide > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> > >>>> From: "Susanne Herre" <mandolinens...@web.de> > >>>>> > >>>> To: "Lute List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:45 PM > >>>>> > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] lute music and playing technique in italy > >>>>> > 18th century > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Lute Wisdom, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> It would be great if you could help me. I'm > >>>>> > doing some research on > >>>>> > >>>>> the baroque mandolin. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I would like to know which italian baroque > >>>>> > music for lute > >>>>> > >>>>> instruments do we have from the first half of > >>>>> > the 18th century? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Which composers are represented? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Which kinds of instruments are preferred? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> What is known about playing technique? More > >>>>> > "thumb-in" or > >>>>> > >>>>> "thumb-out"? > >>>>> > >>>>> "Two-voice-chords"- how will they be played? > >>>>> > How high is the thumb > >>>>> > >>>>> going? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks in advance for any helpful comments! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Susanne > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> References > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu > >>>>> 2. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de > >>>>> 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >>>>> 4. mailto:davide.rebu...@fastwebnet.it > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >
