Not all of them were and are. A 6th comma meantone temperament upon g on a Renaissancelute tunes to g' is quite pleasant to the ear, well my ear at least. I find that when I just tune my lute to the sound I want to hear it ends up being in this temperament.
Cheers, Lex Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:12 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: > Those temperaments were and are for masochists. > RT > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lex van Sante" <[email protected]> > To: "lute mailing list list" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:59 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project > > >> I think there is a mixup between fret-spacing and fret thickness. >> Frets being of equal thickness may well mean that this particular lute had a >> high action which temporarily can be corrected by tying frets of equal >> diameter. >> The frets of this lute do not seem to be placed at the 6th comma meantone >> temperament which most of us seem to use. >> I am uncertain if this then would automatically mean that they are placed at >> equal intervals. >> There were many types of temperaments available to the 16th century >> luteplayer, most of which sound too harsh for our modern ears. >> >> Cheers, Lex >> Op 8 feb 2011, om 15:43 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: >> >>> Anthony, >>> the lute denotes FAMILIAL HARMONY, and the broken string denotes that that >>> familial harmony >>> was disrupted by a death. >>> And the fretting is equally tempered, just like it was (and should be) in >>> real life. >>> RT >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]> >>> To: "Ed Durbrow" <[email protected]>; "Martyn Hodgson" >>> <[email protected]> >>> Cc: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:35 AM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project >>> >>> >>>> Dear Ed, Martyn, and All, >>>> >>>> As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only given it an >>>> admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about the >>>> significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may be >>>> able to >>>> enlighten me? >>>> The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite different >>>> from >>>> >>>> Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical stringing of >>>> the >>>> time? >>>> >>>> It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much >>>> importance to this detail which the painter might have considered >>>> insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the >>>> practise >>>> of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as it was >>>> deemed by those knowledgeable in luting. >>>> >>>> The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends to give >>>> the >>>> (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might be >>>> almost >>>> as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not >>>> necessarily >>>> >>>> informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory >>>> (doubtful?) >>>> or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up as a >>>> painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain details of >>>> instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been >>>> focussed on >>>> (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the >>>> complex >>>> primary symbolic message conveyed. >>>> >>>> For example, it seems to have been established that some of the >>>> instruments are >>>> >>>> misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the date >>>> of >>>> Good Friday 1533. >>>> >>>> "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the >>>> instruments >>>> to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's dial, two >>>> quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously >>>> misaligned >>>> for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an >>>> oversight on >>>> the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was the >>>> astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)" >>>> >>>> "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the heavens >>>> out of >>>> joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is >>>> suggested by >>>> >>>> the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed by the >>>> lute >>>> with a broken string on the shelf below (...)" >>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html >>>> >>>> That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the lute >>>> is >>>> broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is >>>> evident; >>>> but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the would-be >>>> viewer >>>> (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was not >>>> ideally >>>> strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those principles >>>> were >>>> already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)? >>>> >>>> I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, would >>>> appear >>>> to be almost equal in thickness. >>>> >>>> At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as >>>> possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string height >>>> have >>>> been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at fret 8 >>>> (due >>>> to the equal fretting)? >>>> >>>> The presence of both these features together, could argue against the >>>> likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that the >>>> painter >>>> had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that the >>>> painter >>>> is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; although if >>>> we >>>> accept >>>> >>>> that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time >>>> (1533), or >>>> just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that those >>>> in the >>>> >>>> know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be difficult to >>>> play. >>>> >>>> If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later >>>> suggestion by >>>> Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's 'OTHER >>>> NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates fret >>>> sizes >>>> to strings of the lute, >>>> Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course >>>> 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd >>>> 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd >>>> 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st >>>> >>>> (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was a flaw >>>> in my >>>> >>>> reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal frets, >>>> and >>>> this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make the >>>> bridge >>>> higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be compensating for >>>> something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge. >>>> >>>> Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first added >>>> loaded >>>> strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus perhaps >>>> the >>>> expected >>>> >>>> fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and the >>>> raising >>>> at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting. >>>> >>>> I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, >>>> particularly >>>> relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, might be >>>> thinner >>>> than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest >>>> possible >>>> string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point out >>>> that >>>> some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have been >>>> chosen >>>> by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they represent, >>>> and >>>> the bolder >>>> >>>> thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to contrast this. >>>> >>>> In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings >>>> (possibly >>>> both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, which is >>>> also >>>> present in so many other structural elements in the painting, rather than >>>> significant of a general practise. >>>> >>>> These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps simply >>>> show my >>>> ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as equal; >>>> or >>>> many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular problem (I >>>> seem >>>> to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my >>>> "balbutiements". >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> ----- Message d'origine ---- >>>> De : Ed Durbrow <[email protected]> >>>> À : LuteNet list <[email protected]> >>>> Envoyé le : Sam 5 février 2011, 3h 32min 30s >>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project >>>> >>>> I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow! >>>> I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my >>>> academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or >>>> next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute >>>> lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on. >>>> >>>> Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using >>>> carbon fiber. :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> [3][1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >>>> bas >>>> >>>> sadors >>>> >>>> Ed Durbrow >>>> Saitama, Japan >>>> [2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>>> [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >>>> 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>>> 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>> >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >
