Minor thirds were regarded as more or less dissonant anyway, and maybe the so called Elisabethan Melancholy was to be expressed using insufferable minor thirds.
LvS Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:21 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: > It can also be really insufferable, when it renders > minor 3rds too wide. > RT > > From: "Lex van Sante" <[email protected]> > To: "lute mailing list list" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:17 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project > > >> Not all of them were and are. >> A 6th comma meantone temperament upon g on a Renaissancelute tunes to g' is >> quite pleasant to the ear, well my ear at least. >> I find that when I just tune my lute to the sound I want to hear it ends up >> being in this temperament. >> >> Cheers, Lex >> Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:12 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: >> >>> Those temperaments were and are for masochists. >>> RT >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lex van Sante" <[email protected]> >>> To: "lute mailing list list" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:59 AM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project >>> >>> >>>> I think there is a mixup between fret-spacing and fret thickness. >>>> Frets being of equal thickness may well mean that this particular lute had >>>> a high action which temporarily can be corrected by tying frets of equal >>>> diameter. >>>> The frets of this lute do not seem to be placed at the 6th comma meantone >>>> temperament which most of us seem to use. >>>> I am uncertain if this then would automatically mean that they are placed >>>> at equal intervals. >>>> There were many types of temperaments available to the 16th century >>>> luteplayer, most of which sound too harsh for our modern ears. >>>> >>>> Cheers, Lex >>>> Op 8 feb 2011, om 15:43 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: >>>> >>>>> Anthony, >>>>> the lute denotes FAMILIAL HARMONY, and the broken string denotes that >>>>> that familial harmony >>>>> was disrupted by a death. >>>>> And the fretting is equally tempered, just like it was (and should be) in >>>>> real life. >>>>> RT >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: "Ed Durbrow" <[email protected]>; "Martyn Hodgson" >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> Cc: <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:35 AM >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Ed, Martyn, and All, >>>>>> >>>>>> As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only given it an >>>>>> admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about the >>>>>> significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may be >>>>>> able to >>>>>> enlighten me? >>>>>> The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite >>>>>> different from >>>>>> >>>>>> Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical stringing of >>>>>> the >>>>>> time? >>>>>> >>>>>> It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much >>>>>> importance to this detail which the painter might have considered >>>>>> insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the >>>>>> practise >>>>>> of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as it >>>>>> was >>>>>> deemed by those knowledgeable in luting. >>>>>> >>>>>> The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends to give >>>>>> the >>>>>> (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might be >>>>>> almost >>>>>> as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not >>>>>> necessarily >>>>>> >>>>>> informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory >>>>>> (doubtful?) >>>>>> or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up as a >>>>>> painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain details of >>>>>> instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been >>>>>> focussed on >>>>>> (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the >>>>>> complex >>>>>> primary symbolic message conveyed. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example, it seems to have been established that some of the >>>>>> instruments are >>>>>> >>>>>> misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the >>>>>> date of >>>>>> Good Friday 1533. >>>>>> >>>>>> "But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the >>>>>> instruments >>>>>> to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's dial, two >>>>>> quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously >>>>>> misaligned >>>>>> for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an >>>>>> oversight on >>>>>> the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was the >>>>>> astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer (...)" >>>>>> >>>>>> "The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the heavens >>>>>> out of >>>>>> joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is >>>>>> suggested by >>>>>> >>>>>> the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed by >>>>>> the lute >>>>>> with a broken string on the shelf below (...)" >>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html >>>>>> >>>>>> That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the >>>>>> lute is >>>>>> broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is >>>>>> evident; >>>>>> but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the would-be >>>>>> viewer >>>>>> (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was not >>>>>> ideally >>>>>> strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those >>>>>> principles were >>>>>> already the same as those at J. Dowland's time, around 1610)? >>>>>> >>>>>> I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, would >>>>>> appear >>>>>> to be almost equal in thickness. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as >>>>>> possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string >>>>>> height have >>>>>> been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at fret >>>>>> 8 (due >>>>>> to the equal fretting)? >>>>>> >>>>>> The presence of both these features together, could argue against the >>>>>> likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that the >>>>>> painter >>>>>> had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that the >>>>>> painter >>>>>> is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; although >>>>>> if we >>>>>> accept >>>>>> >>>>>> that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time >>>>>> (1533), or >>>>>> just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that >>>>>> those in the >>>>>> >>>>>> know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be difficult to >>>>>> play. >>>>>> >>>>>> If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later >>>>>> suggestion by >>>>>> Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's 'OTHER >>>>>> NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates fret >>>>>> sizes >>>>>> to strings of the lute, >>>>>> Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course >>>>>> 3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd >>>>>> 5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd >>>>>> 7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st >>>>>> >>>>>> (PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was a >>>>>> flaw in my >>>>>> >>>>>> reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal frets, >>>>>> and >>>>>> this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make the >>>>>> bridge >>>>>> higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be compensating >>>>>> for >>>>>> something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge. >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first added >>>>>> loaded >>>>>> strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus >>>>>> perhaps the >>>>>> expected >>>>>> >>>>>> fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and the >>>>>> raising >>>>>> at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, >>>>>> particularly >>>>>> relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, might be >>>>>> thinner >>>>>> than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest >>>>>> possible >>>>>> string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point out >>>>>> that >>>>>> some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have been >>>>>> chosen >>>>>> by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they represent, >>>>>> and >>>>>> the bolder >>>>>> >>>>>> thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to contrast >>>>>> this. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings >>>>>> (possibly >>>>>> both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, which >>>>>> is also >>>>>> present in so many other structural elements in the painting, rather >>>>>> than >>>>>> significant of a general practise. >>>>>> >>>>>> These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps simply >>>>>> show my >>>>>> ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as >>>>>> equal; or >>>>>> many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular problem >>>>>> (I seem >>>>>> to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my >>>>>> "balbutiements". >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Message d'origine ---- >>>>>> De : Ed Durbrow <[email protected]> >>>>>> À : LuteNet list <[email protected]> >>>>>> Envoyé le : Sam 5 février 2011, 3h 32min 30s >>>>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project >>>>>> >>>>>> I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow! >>>>>> I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my >>>>>> academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or >>>>>> next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute >>>>>> lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on. >>>>>> >>>>>> Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using >>>>>> carbon fiber. :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> [3][1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am >>>>>> bas >>>>>> >>>>>> sadors >>>>>> >>>>>> Ed Durbrow >>>>>> Saitama, Japan >>>>>> [2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>>>>> [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> References >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas >>>>>> 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ >>>>>> 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > >
