Dear Martyn
I do agree that a heavy guitar strap could not be historic, and
most probably the wider Ahumada strap which is deliberately made to be
seen (as well as to give maximum support), would not be either. It
would seem from the iconography that the elegance of a lute invisibly
suspended (as you say) by a strand of gut, seems rather to have been
the tendency, when they weren't simply plonked on a table.
Both these systems appear to be depicted in this laurent_de_la_hyre
painting, which has been shown on our list quite frequently before.
[1]http://tinyurl.com/conmfc
The gut loop, coming from the back of the lute is clearly shown on the
lute on the table:
as tried by yourself,
"I first tried with a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a
rough simulation of
heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. " Martyn
I had hoped this historic system, would be very stable, with the lute
suspended from an ideal point on its back; indeed I was thinking of
giving it a try, and if it was compatible with my shoulder problem, I
would have happily adopted it.
The solution of stabilizing the lute on a table, as frequently
mentionned here,
[2]http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html
is also shown in this painting, but whether by this period, it was just
for tuning, or in this case, for maintaining a pose for the artist, I
have no idea. It clearly was a historic playing solution in the
Renaissance period, see Robinson, and the iconography:
[3]http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg
Carlos Gonzales, lute maker, tells me he is developing such a lute
table, which both serves to stabilize as well as to "amplify" the lute,
but the problem of space and transport does not make that a practical
solution for all.
I think many of us would adopt a historical solution, if it gave the
desired stability and was not too impractical. Perhaps, the solution
you suggest with "a long tape looped round the back and crossed at the
front" could indeed give this desired stabilty. Unfortunately. I could
not see the engraving you sent us, which seems to have been
filtered-out, but could it be similar to this interesting system shown
here, in this painting by Pietro Paolini: CONCERT DE MUSICIENS ET DE
CHANTEURS, around 1625:
[4]http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/Paolini
Pietro.jpg
Could this also be similar to the solution that Sean has adopted?
I tried to make a quick mock-up of this, but was not very successful.
Nevertheless, I am wondering how far we should feel we have to go
along this historic route. It would be "nice" to use a historic strap
system, but is it crucial to reentering the sound world of the period?
Historicity, per se, might be questioned by some.
David v O in a recent Lute News gives excellent arguments for using gut
strings as they bring us closer to the microdynamics available to
earlier lute-player composers.
In order to find similar arguments in favour of adopting historic strap
solutions, should we not have to show that the modern solution prevents
us in some way (or is at least not conducive) to reconstructing the
composer's sound world?
If this is not the case, then we may still want to adopt it, just to
look or feel the part, but it would not be crucial.
I do think that some quite invisible modern aids may effect the
dynamics of the lute. The rubber carpet underlay used by many to
stabilize their lutes, I feel, dampens the lute's sound. At least, that
is how it seems to me, so I stopped using it.
However, I don't think that the wideness of a modern strap, would
effect the sound; although I do think that the lute's angle (due to the
strap's set-up) could effect the sound produced through its effect on
the RH angle of attack, and this therefore could be of historic
concern.
I have to admit that in adopting my present set-up, I sacrificed almost
every thing to resolving my soulder problem, which I feared could bring
my lute playing to a hault.
I needed to be able to quickly alter the strap length to shift the
"sweet-spot" so as to avoid developing pain (thus the guitar strap). I
also needed to keep my left hand as close as possible to my body, so as
to minimze the leverage force on the shoulder capsule.
I have found the least painful position is an almost theorbo style
(rather like that of Nigel North). This does not seem to be a style
used by French lutenists (judging by the iconography, although it IS
similar to that shown on the Pietro Paolini painting), and this
unfortunately, will be effecting my RH position and angle of attack,
and so presumably the sound.
But my lute may also be judged to have a rather too long string length
(70cm) for French music; and perhaps with a 67cm lute, I could manage a
more horizontal (and historically correct) lute position.
Thus, I am not proning these solutions for all, just trying to resolve
my own shoulder handicap, with the lute I have at present.
Although, I did chose a red strap over the black equivalent, as it went
better with the red loaded basses, and somehow looked a little more the
part than the regular black one.
"We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a
neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The problem
mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of
rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And so
I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you
overcome
the problems?" Martyn
I would say, that a wider strap, if not historic, does seem to help
stabilize the lute, and I wanted as rigid a lute set-up as possible.
I found that, with this strap tied to both lute buttons, if I tilt the
table of my lute slightly upwards, then there is less tendency for it
to roll, (or to rock, in spite of what the strap type might suggest
...). The 4th and 5th ribs from the top (of my 11 rib lute) seem to
settle into my stomach shape (but that could depend on one's shape).
Although, I have my strap quite long, and not tight, I can stand and
play with the lute remaining quite stable.
Furthermore, I get better feedback from the instrument, which has been
a help to my playing.
I am not sure this lute angle is historic, although again it is not far
from that depicted by Paolini.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>
A : Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
Cc : [email protected]
Envoye le : Ven 11 mars 2011, 15h 15min 11s
Objet : [LUTE] Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap slips off
left shoulder.
Dear Anthony,
We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a
neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The problem
mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of
rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And so
I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you
overcome
the problems?
I think I know how the early players did since there is one rather
good
illustration of tapes/ribbons coming from waistcoat buttons (or
perhaps
round the players back and coming from the button holes) fastened to
the two buttons. This greatly increases the stability of the
arrangement since these are pretty firmly fixed.There is an engraving
which seems to show this and I'm attaching it again. It is, to my
knowledge, the ONLY representation showing such an attachment to a
button on the top block and thus a unique examplar of what must, if
the
number of lutes with such buttons are an indication, have been common
practice from (mid?) 17thC on. Certainly few paintings show a strap
(as
used with theorbos and the like) being used for lute and some (eg
Mouton) seem to have them suspended in mid air almost (tho' perhaps
they might have suggested straps not being shown....)
I've tried it and the system with a long tape looped round the back
and
crossed at the front provides the required stabilty. I first tried
with
a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a rough simulation of
heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. Any other ideas?
rgds
Martyn
PS I think the heavy wide rock guitar straps are a diversion from
historical practice - surely if such massive straps were ever used
they'd be seen on almost all the representations of people playing
lutes? Ribbons/tapes are much more discrete and, not being over the
shoulder, do not really show at all - hence, presumably, why not seen
in iconography
--- On Fri, 11/3/11, Anthony Hind <[5][email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind <[6][email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
To: "Sean Smith" <[7][email protected]>, "Herbert Ward"
<[8][email protected]>
Cc: [9][email protected]
Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 10:36
On my Baroque lute, I attach both ends to the lute bowl, although
the
button at the front end occasionally pops out!
I am using a red suede leather terminated guitar strap, but as
the
strap tends to slip off the shoulder, I have sown rubber
undercarpet
material to the underside of the strap (the same material as
many
people use on their lap).
I have turned the strap over to show this, here:
[1][1][10]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
It may seem inelegant, but it doesn't show when playing.
The only problem is that this material , with prolonged contact,
can
take the varnish off the lute (or mark it, as did happen to me),
so
another solution could be to use a thick velvet, similar to that
used
on this lute strap, by Jose Antonio Ahumada:
[2][2][11]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
Indeed, I would use this strap type, as it grips on to the
shoulder
very well, except that you can't control the strap length quite
so
well.
The grip is even better if you can have the strap tight, but that
means
holding your lute high on the chest. As Benjamin Narvey is doing
here:
[3][3][12]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
I used to do this, as I could then either stand or sit, but
having
had
a frozen shoulder (adhesive capsulitisis), I now have to hold my
lute
as low as possible, so as to put minimum strain on the shoulder
area.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Sean Smith <[4][13][email protected]>
A : [5][14][email protected]
Envoye le : Jeu 10 mars 2011, 19h 20min 18s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
Thanks, Roman, but this shouldn't be taken as an illustration of
what I
meant. I'm sorry that I don't have the means to throw it up on
the
web
at the moment.
Think stabilizing triangle from strap-end to pegbox.
s
On Mar 10, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Roman Turovsky
<[4][6][15][email protected]>
wrote:
> I've made a little chart of how to tie the strap to prevent
rolling/slipping:
> [5][7][16]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
> RT'
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Smith"
<[6][8][17][email protected]>
> To: <[7][9][18][email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:43 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
>
>
>> Tie the strap off at the butt end of lute in the usual way.
Where
the strap ends over the left shoulder attach a long loop of
string
(I
like a dark shoelace). Let one end run over the peg at the nut
end
of
the pegbox and the other at the tip (or wherever you like
considering
all those pegs to choose from). Make a few loops around varius
pegs
on
the far side to finetune the length and to keep it from
traveling.
>>
>> I've done this for years. I can stand or sit and expect zero
lute
rotation. It also keeps my shoulders 'square' and non slumpy
which
may
help your slippage problem.
>>
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> On Mar 9, 2011, at 7:20 PM, Herbert Ward
<[8][10][19][email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In playing my 13-course, the strap is constantly on the verge
>>> of slipping backwards off my left shoulder. To a lesser
extent
>>> this happens with my Renaissance lute also. Any suggeestions
>>> besides safety-pinning the strap to my shirt?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>
[9][11][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>
>
--
References
1. [12][21]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
2. [13][22]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
3. [14][23]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
4. mailto:[15][24][email protected]
5. [16][25]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
6. mailto:[17][26][email protected]
7. mailto:[18][27][email protected]
8. mailto:[19][28][email protected]
9.
[20][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. [30]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
2. [31]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
3. [32]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
4. [33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
5.
[34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
6.
[35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
7. [36]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
8. [37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
9.
[38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
10.
[39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
du
11. [40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. [41]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
13. [42]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
14. [43]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
15.
[44]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
16. [45]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
17.
[46]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
18.
[47]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
19.
[48]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
du
20. [49]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://tinyurl.com/conmfc
2. http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html
3. http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg
4.
http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/PaoliniPietro.jpg
5. mailto:[email protected]
6. mailto:[email protected]
7. mailto:[email protected]
8. mailto:[email protected]
9. mailto:[email protected]
10. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
11. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
12. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
13. mailto:[email protected]
14. mailto:[email protected]
15. mailto:[email protected]
16. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
17. mailto:[email protected]
18. mailto:[email protected]
19. mailto:[email protected]
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
21. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
22. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
23. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
24. mailto:[email protected]
25. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
26. mailto:[email protected]
27. mailto:[email protected]
28. mailto:[email protected]
29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
30. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
31. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
32. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
33. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
34. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
36. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
37. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
38. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
39. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
41. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
42. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
43. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
44. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
45. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
46. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
47. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
48. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
49. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
