You may well be correct about this particular painting, but I believe robinson is quite clear on that topic. Anthony
----- Message d'origine ---- De : Edward Mast <[email protected]> À : Anthony Hind <[email protected]> Cc : [email protected] Envoyé le : Lun 14 mars 2011, 17h 01min 09s Objet : [LUTE] Re: Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. The reference to Robinson and the iconography (showing three singers with the middle one playing the lute) raises questions in me about the accuracy of such paintings, and how to interpret iconography in general. In an otherwise quite well detailed and proportioned painting, the artist has badly proportioned the front of the lute, the rose being bar closer to the top of the instrument than the bottom of it. I think it's safe to assume it wasn't built this way, so why so depict it? Perhaps the player was holding it above the table, and the artist decided - for whatever reason - to paint it on the table and so enlarged the bottom of it (having already nearly completed painting the lute and the table). Or perhaps a number of other scenarios. My point is that it seems we should be very wary of how literally we interpret iconographic evidence. On Mar 14, 2011, at 10:27 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > Sorry, I see the message was not in simple text, so here it is again: > > Dear Martyn > I do agree that a heavy guitar strap could not be historic, and most > probably the wider Ahumada strap which is deliberately made to be seen (as > well > > as to give maximum support), would not be either. It would seem from the > iconography that the elegance of a lute invisibly suspended (as you say) by a > strand of gut, seems rather to have been the tendency, when they weren't > simply > > plonked on a table. > > Both these systems appear to be depicted in this laurent_de_la_hyre > painting, > > which has been shown on our list quite frequently before. > > http://tinyurl.com/conmfc > The gut loop, coming from the back of the lute is clearly shown on the lute > on > the table: > as tried by yourself, > "I first tried with a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a rough > simulation of > heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. " Martyn > > I had hoped this historic system, would be very stable, with the lute > suspended > > from an ideal point on its back; indeed I was thinking of giving it a try, > and > if it was compatible with my shoulder problem, I would have happily adopted > it. > > > > The solution of stabilizing the lute on a table, as frequently mentionned > here, > > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html > is also shown in this painting, but whether by this period, it was just for > tuning, or in this case, for maintaining a pose for the artist, I have no > idea. > > It clearly was a historic playing solution in the Renaissance period, see > Robinson, and the iconography: > http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg > > Carlos Gonzales, lute maker, tells me he is developing such a lute table, > which > > both serves to stabilize as well as to "amplify" the lute, but the problem of > space and transport does not make that a practical solution for all. > > I think many of us would adopt a historical solution, if it gave the desired > stability and was not too impractical. Perhaps, the solution you suggest > with > "a long tape looped round the back and crossed at the front" could indeed > give > > this desired stabilty. Unfortunately. I could not see the engraving you sent > us, which seems to have been filtered-out, but could it be similar to this > interesting system shown here, in this painting by Pietro Paolini: CONCERT DE > MUSICIENS ET DE CHANTEURS, around 1625: > http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/PaoliniPietro.jpg > Could this also be similar to the solution that Sean has adopted? > I tried to make a quick mock-up of this, but was not very successful. > > Nevertheless, I am wondering how far we should feel we have to go along > this > > > historic route. It would be "nice" to use a historic strap system, but is it > crucial to reentering the sound world of the period? Historicity, per se, > might > > be questioned by some. > > > David v O in a recent Lute News gives excellent arguments for using gut > strings > > as they bring us closer to the microdynamics available to earlier lute-player > composers. > > > In order to find similar arguments in favour of adopting historic strap > solutions, should we not have to show that the modern solution prevents us in > some way (or is at least not conducive) to reconstructing the composer's > sound > world? > > If this is not the case, then we may still want to adopt it, just to look or > feel the part, but it would not be crucial. > > I do think that some quite invisible modern aids may effect the dynamics of >the > > > lute. The rubber carpet underlay used by many to stabilize their lutes, I >feel, > > > dampens the lute's sound. At least, that is how it seems to me, so I stopped > using it. > > However, I don't think that the wideness of a modern strap, would effect the > sound; although I do think that the lute's angle (due to the strap's set-up) > could effect the sound produced through its effect on the RH angle of > attack, > and this therefore could be of historic concern. > > > I have to admit that in adopting my present set-up, I sacrificed almost > every > thing to resolving my soulder problem, which I feared could bring my lute > playing to a hault. > I needed to be able to quickly alter the strap length to shift the >"sweet-spot" > > > so as to avoid developing pain (thus the guitar strap). I also needed to > keep > my left hand as close as possible to my body, so as to minimze the leverage > force on the shoulder capsule. > > I have found the least painful position is an almost theorbo style (rather >like > > > that of Nigel North). This does not seem to be a style used by French > lutenists (judging by the iconography, although it IS similar to that shown > on > > the Pietro Paolini painting), and this unfortunately, will be effecting my > RH > position and angle of attack, and so presumably the sound. > > But my lute may also be judged to have a rather too long string length > (70cm) > > for French music; and perhaps with a 67cm lute, I could manage a more > horizontal (and historically correct) lute position. > > > Thus, I am not proning these solutions for all, just trying to resolve my > own > > shoulder handicap, with the lute I have at present. > > Although, I did chose a red strap over the black equivalent, as it went > better > with the red loaded basses, and somehow looked a little more the part than > the > regular black one. > > "We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a > neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The problem > mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of > rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And so > I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you overcome > the problems?" Martyn > > I would say, that a wider strap, if not historic, does seem to help > stabilize > > the lute, and I wanted as rigid a lute set-up as possible. > > I found that, with this strap tied to both lute buttons, if I tilt the > table > of my lute slightly upwards, then there is less tendency for it to roll, (or >to > > > rock, in spite of what the strap type might suggest ...). The 4th and 5th > ribs > > from the top (of my 11 rib lute) seem to settle into my stomach shape (but >that > > > could depend on one's shape). Although, I have my strap quite long, and not > tight, I can stand and play with the lute remaining quite stable. > Furthermore, I get better feedback from the instrument, which has been a help >to > > > my playing. > I am not sure this lute angle is historic, although again it is not far from > that depicted by Paolini. > > Regards > Anthony > > > > > > > ________________________________ > De : Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> > À : Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > Cc : [email protected] > Envoyé le : Ven 11 mars 2011, 15h 15min 11s > Objet : [LUTE] Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap slips off left > shoulder. > > > Dear Anthony, > > We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a > neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The problem > mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of > rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And so > I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you overcome > the problems? > > I think I know how the early players did since there is one rather good > illustration of tapes/ribbons coming from waistcoat buttons (or perhaps > round the players back and coming from the button holes) fastened to > the two buttons. This greatly increases the stability of the > arrangement since these are pretty firmly fixed.There is an engraving > which seems to show this and I'm attaching it again. It is, to my > knowledge, the ONLY representation showing such an attachment to a > button on the top block and thus a unique examplar of what must, if the > number of lutes with such buttons are an indication, have been common > practice from (mid?) 17thC on. Certainly few paintings show a strap (as > used with theorbos and the like) being used for lute and some (eg > Mouton) seem to have them suspended in mid air almost (tho' perhaps > they might have suggested straps not being shown....) > > I've tried it and the system with a long tape looped round the back and > crossed at the front provides the required stabilty. I first tried with > a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a rough simulation of > heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. Any other ideas? > > rgds > > Martyn > > PS I think the heavy wide rock guitar straps are a diversion from > historical practice - surely if such massive straps were ever used > they'd be seen on almost all the representations of people playing > lutes? Ribbons/tapes are much more discrete and, not being over the > shoulder, do not really show at all - hence, presumably, why not seen > in iconography > > --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. > To: "Sean Smith" <[email protected]>, "Herbert Ward" > <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 10:36 > > On my Baroque lute, I attach both ends to the lute bowl, although > the > button at the front end occasionally pops out! > I am using a red suede leather terminated guitar strap, but as the > strap tends to slip off the shoulder, I have sown rubber undercarpet > material to the underside of the strap (the same material as many > people use on their lap). > I have turned the strap over to show this, here: > [1][1]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x > It may seem inelegant, but it doesn't show when playing. > The only problem is that this material , with prolonged contact, can > take the varnish off the lute (or mark it, as did happen to me), so > another solution could be to use a thick velvet, similar to that > used > on this lute strap, by Jose Antonio Ahumada: > [2][2]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d > Indeed, I would use this strap type, as it grips on to the shoulder > very well, except that you can't control the strap length quite so > well. > The grip is even better if you can have the strap tight, but that > means > holding your lute high on the chest. As Benjamin Narvey is doing > here: > [3][3]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 > I used to do this, as I could then either stand or sit, but having > had > a frozen shoulder (adhesive capsulitisis), I now have to hold my > lute > as low as possible, so as to put minimum strain on the shoulder > area. > Regards > Anthony > __________________________________________________________________ > De : Sean Smith <[4][email protected]> > A : [5][email protected] > Envoye le : Jeu 10 mars 2011, 19h 20min 18s > Objet : [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. > Thanks, Roman, but this shouldn't be taken as an illustration of > what I > meant. I'm sorry that I don't have the means to throw it up on the > web > at the moment. > Think stabilizing triangle from strap-end to pegbox. > s > On Mar 10, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Roman Turovsky > <[4][6][email protected]> > wrote: >> I've made a little chart of how to tie the strap to prevent > rolling/slipping: >> [5][7]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg >> RT' >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Smith" > <[6][8][email protected]> >> To: <[7][9][email protected]> >> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:43 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder. >> >> >>> Tie the strap off at the butt end of lute in the usual way. Where > the strap ends over the left shoulder attach a long loop of string > (I > like a dark shoelace). Let one end run over the peg at the nut end > of > the pegbox and the other at the tip (or wherever you like > considering > all those pegs to choose from). Make a few loops around varius pegs > on > the far side to finetune the length and to keep it from traveling. >>> >>> I've done this for years. I can stand or sit and expect zero lute > rotation. It also keeps my shoulders 'square' and non slumpy which > may > help your slippage problem. >>> >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> On Mar 9, 2011, at 7:20 PM, Herbert Ward > <[8][10][email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> In playing my 13-course, the strap is constantly on the verge >>>> of slipping backwards off my left shoulder. To a lesser extent >>>> this happens with my Renaissance lute also. Any suggeestions >>>> besides safety-pinning the strap to my shirt? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> [9][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> > -- > References > 1. [12]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x > 2. [13]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d > 3. [14]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 > 4. mailto:[15][email protected] > 5. [16]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg > 6. mailto:[17][email protected] > 7. mailto:[18][email protected] > 8. mailto:[19][email protected] > 9. [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x > 2. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d > 3. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 > 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 7. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg > 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x > 13. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d > 14. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8 > 15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 16. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg > 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >
