Sorry, I see the message was not in simple text, so here it is again:
Dear Martyn
I do agree that a heavy guitar strap could not be historic, and most
probably the wider Ahumada strap which is deliberately made to be seen (as well
as to give maximum support), would not be either. It would seem from the
iconography that the elegance of a lute invisibly suspended (as you say) by a
strand of gut, seems rather to have been the tendency, when they weren't simply
plonked on a table.
Both these systems appear to be depicted in this laurent_de_la_hyre painting,
which has been shown on our list quite frequently before.
http://tinyurl.com/conmfc
The gut loop, coming from the back of the lute is clearly shown on the lute on
the table:
as tried by yourself,
"I first tried with a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a rough
simulation of
heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. " Martyn
I had hoped this historic system, would be very stable, with the lute suspended
from an ideal point on its back; indeed I was thinking of giving it a try, and
if it was compatible with my shoulder problem, I would have happily adopted it.
The solution of stabilizing the lute on a table, as frequently mentionned here,
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html
is also shown in this painting, but whether by this period, it was just for
tuning, or in this case, for maintaining a pose for the artist, I have no idea.
It clearly was a historic playing solution in the Renaissance period, see
Robinson, and the iconography:
http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg
Carlos Gonzales, lute maker, tells me he is developing such a lute table, which
both serves to stabilize as well as to "amplify" the lute, but the problem of
space and transport does not make that a practical solution for all.
I think many of us would adopt a historical solution, if it gave the desired
stability and was not too impractical. Perhaps, the solution you suggest with
"a long tape looped round the back and crossed at the front" could indeed give
this desired stabilty. Unfortunately. I could not see the engraving you sent
us, which seems to have been filtered-out, but could it be similar to this
interesting system shown here, in this painting by Pietro Paolini: CONCERT DE
MUSICIENS ET DE CHANTEURS, around 1625:
http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/PaoliniPietro.jpg
Could this also be similar to the solution that Sean has adopted?
I tried to make a quick mock-up of this, but was not very successful.
Nevertheless, I am wondering how far we should feel we have to go along
this
historic route. It would be "nice" to use a historic strap system, but is it
crucial to reentering the sound world of the period? Historicity, per se, might
be questioned by some.
David v O in a recent Lute News gives excellent arguments for using gut strings
as they bring us closer to the microdynamics available to earlier lute-player
composers.
In order to find similar arguments in favour of adopting historic strap
solutions, should we not have to show that the modern solution prevents us in
some way (or is at least not conducive) to reconstructing the composer's sound
world?
If this is not the case, then we may still want to adopt it, just to look or
feel the part, but it would not be crucial.
I do think that some quite invisible modern aids may effect the dynamics of
the
lute. The rubber carpet underlay used by many to stabilize their lutes, I
feel,
dampens the lute's sound. At least, that is how it seems to me, so I stopped
using it.
However, I don't think that the wideness of a modern strap, would effect the
sound; although I do think that the lute's angle (due to the strap's set-up)
could effect the sound produced through its effect on the RH angle of attack,
and this therefore could be of historic concern.
I have to admit that in adopting my present set-up, I sacrificed almost every
thing to resolving my soulder problem, which I feared could bring my lute
playing to a hault.
I needed to be able to quickly alter the strap length to shift the
"sweet-spot"
so as to avoid developing pain (thus the guitar strap). I also needed to keep
my left hand as close as possible to my body, so as to minimze the leverage
force on the shoulder capsule.
I have found the least painful position is an almost theorbo style (rather
like
that of Nigel North). This does not seem to be a style used by French
lutenists (judging by the iconography, although it IS similar to that shown on
the Pietro Paolini painting), and this unfortunately, will be effecting my RH
position and angle of attack, and so presumably the sound.
But my lute may also be judged to have a rather too long string length (70cm)
for French music; and perhaps with a 67cm lute, I could manage a more
horizontal (and historically correct) lute position.
Thus, I am not proning these solutions for all, just trying to resolve my own
shoulder handicap, with the lute I have at present.
Although, I did chose a red strap over the black equivalent, as it went better
with the red loaded basses, and somehow looked a little more the part than the
regular black one.
"We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a
neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The problem
mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of
rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And so
I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you overcome
the problems?" Martyn
I would say, that a wider strap, if not historic, does seem to help stabilize
the lute, and I wanted as rigid a lute set-up as possible.
I found that, with this strap tied to both lute buttons, if I tilt the table
of my lute slightly upwards, then there is less tendency for it to roll, (or
to
rock, in spite of what the strap type might suggest ...). The 4th and 5th ribs
from the top (of my 11 rib lute) seem to settle into my stomach shape (but
that
could depend on one's shape). Although, I have my strap quite long, and not
tight, I can stand and play with the lute remaining quite stable.
Furthermore, I get better feedback from the instrument, which has been a help
to
my playing.
I am not sure this lute angle is historic, although again it is not far from
that depicted by Paolini.
Regards
Anthony
________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>
À : Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
Cc : [email protected]
Envoyé le : Ven 11 mars 2011, 15h 15min 11s
Objet : [LUTE] Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap slips off left
shoulder.
Dear Anthony,
We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a
neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The problem
mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of
rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And so
I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you overcome
the problems?
I think I know how the early players did since there is one rather good
illustration of tapes/ribbons coming from waistcoat buttons (or perhaps
round the players back and coming from the button holes) fastened to
the two buttons. This greatly increases the stability of the
arrangement since these are pretty firmly fixed.There is an engraving
which seems to show this and I'm attaching it again. It is, to my
knowledge, the ONLY representation showing such an attachment to a
button on the top block and thus a unique examplar of what must, if the
number of lutes with such buttons are an indication, have been common
practice from (mid?) 17thC on. Certainly few paintings show a strap (as
used with theorbos and the like) being used for lute and some (eg
Mouton) seem to have them suspended in mid air almost (tho' perhaps
they might have suggested straps not being shown....)
I've tried it and the system with a long tape looped round the back and
crossed at the front provides the required stabilty. I first tried with
a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a rough simulation of
heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. Any other ideas?
rgds
Martyn
PS I think the heavy wide rock guitar straps are a diversion from
historical practice - surely if such massive straps were ever used
they'd be seen on almost all the representations of people playing
lutes? Ribbons/tapes are much more discrete and, not being over the
shoulder, do not really show at all - hence, presumably, why not seen
in iconography
--- On Fri, 11/3/11, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
To: "Sean Smith" <[email protected]>, "Herbert Ward"
<[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 10:36
On my Baroque lute, I attach both ends to the lute bowl, although
the
button at the front end occasionally pops out!
I am using a red suede leather terminated guitar strap, but as the
strap tends to slip off the shoulder, I have sown rubber undercarpet
material to the underside of the strap (the same material as many
people use on their lap).
I have turned the strap over to show this, here:
[1][1]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
It may seem inelegant, but it doesn't show when playing.
The only problem is that this material , with prolonged contact, can
take the varnish off the lute (or mark it, as did happen to me), so
another solution could be to use a thick velvet, similar to that
used
on this lute strap, by Jose Antonio Ahumada:
[2][2]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
Indeed, I would use this strap type, as it grips on to the shoulder
very well, except that you can't control the strap length quite so
well.
The grip is even better if you can have the strap tight, but that
means
holding your lute high on the chest. As Benjamin Narvey is doing
here:
[3][3]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
I used to do this, as I could then either stand or sit, but having
had
a frozen shoulder (adhesive capsulitisis), I now have to hold my
lute
as low as possible, so as to put minimum strain on the shoulder
area.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Sean Smith <[4][email protected]>
A : [5][email protected]
Envoye le : Jeu 10 mars 2011, 19h 20min 18s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
Thanks, Roman, but this shouldn't be taken as an illustration of
what I
meant. I'm sorry that I don't have the means to throw it up on the
web
at the moment.
Think stabilizing triangle from strap-end to pegbox.
s
On Mar 10, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Roman Turovsky
<[4][6][email protected]>
wrote:
> I've made a little chart of how to tie the strap to prevent
rolling/slipping:
> [5][7]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
> RT'
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Smith"
<[6][8][email protected]>
> To: <[7][9][email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:43 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
>
>
>> Tie the strap off at the butt end of lute in the usual way. Where
the strap ends over the left shoulder attach a long loop of string
(I
like a dark shoelace). Let one end run over the peg at the nut end
of
the pegbox and the other at the tip (or wherever you like
considering
all those pegs to choose from). Make a few loops around varius pegs
on
the far side to finetune the length and to keep it from traveling.
>>
>> I've done this for years. I can stand or sit and expect zero lute
rotation. It also keeps my shoulders 'square' and non slumpy which
may
help your slippage problem.
>>
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> On Mar 9, 2011, at 7:20 PM, Herbert Ward
<[8][10][email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In playing my 13-course, the strap is constantly on the verge
>>> of slipping backwards off my left shoulder. To a lesser extent
>>> this happens with my Renaissance lute also. Any suggeestions
>>> besides safety-pinning the strap to my shirt?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [9][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>
>
--
References
1. [12]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
2. [13]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
3. [14]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
4. mailto:[15][email protected]
5. [16]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
6. mailto:[17][email protected]
7. mailto:[18][email protected]
8. mailto:[19][email protected]
9. [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
2. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
3. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
7. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
13. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
14. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
16. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
