Dear Martyn
I didn't receive the engraving, even in your direct message.
"4 re the Pietro Paolini depiction, this seems to be the normal
theorbo/archlute end button fastening then passing round the players
back thence to a fixing point on the main pegbox. ie not the cross over
method I describe fully below."
If you look carefully, you will see there is a strap at the back is not
going over the shoulder, but a second strap, from a point at the back
attached to the main strap, does go over the shoulder, but not the
usual left shoulder (for a right handed player), but the left shoulder.
I had never seen that before. Is it the usual theorbo system, shown in
paintings?
Right, I have more or less understood the crossing tape solution.
I agree it is worth trying out these various methods, just to discover
how people actually played. It may be worth adopting such a position,
if it improves the sound, or even if it turns out to work as well as a
modern solution, but just more elegant.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>
A : [email protected]; Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
Envoye le : Lun 14 mars 2011, 16h 10min 13s
Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap
slips off left shoulder.
Dear Anthony,
I sent you the Hollar engraving copy direct so you should have it by
now. Pay particular attn to things like how the jerkin is pulled
forwards by the tape leaving the button hole and the tape to the neck
block button which seems to come from the player's right.
Response to yrs below:
1. I agree that we shouldn't be too precious about what type of strap
we use - I generally use a ribbon which goes round my back from the end
button to the peghead on all instruments (ie lutes as well as theorboes
and guitars). My interest in the matter that altho the Old Ones clearly
knew about such straps, since they used them for theorboes and the like
and for the guitar, but choose not generally to use them, as far as the
iconographic evidence goes, for the lute. So the question is why did
they not use such a strap? Was the alternative better? - either in
terms of holding and/or of acoustics? I don't think it a purely
academic question since it may have a connexion to how and where we
pluck the instrument which, of course, has a bearing on the sound.
2. Re the laurent_de_la_hyre depiction: it is strange that the tail
gut close to the back is shown since most theorbos had facilities for a
strap around the back (ie not just an end button but a fastening point
on the rear of the main pegbox). This arrangement certainly seems to be
that intended when a lute has two buttons on the back (at the base and
in the end block) Maybe this gut is nothing to do with holding the
instrument?
3. Re tables, certainly - tho audiences will take convincing. Special
table-like gadgets? - I think not - think of the fate of Aguado's
tripodion - lauded by all used by only him....
4 re the Pietro Paolini depiction, this seems to be the normal
theorbo/archlute end button fastening then passing round the players
back thence to a fixing point on the main pegbox. ie not the cross over
method I describe fully below.
5. What I had in mind for lutes (not theorboes etc) with two body
buttons (at the base and at the neck block) based on the Hollar was
this (NB harder to explain than to set up!):
a tape goes from the neck block button to a button hole around the
chest area of the jerkin (shirt), thence over the RH shoulder, down the
back and round ones left side (about half way between chest and belly),
there to emerge from another (lower) jerkin button hole, thence to the
end button. In short, it corosses over itself. Friction ensures the
tape doesn't slip and the direction of the tapes ensure the lute is
held close to the body.
All a bit of a palaver you may say since it requires putting on the
tape with the jerkin(overshirt) - but they had all sorts of fastenings
(jerkins to breeches via buttons etc) so spomething like this would
presumbly worry them. It's a bit like a many modern fiddlers who equip
themsel;ves with fancy shoulder rests and the like which they're
obliged to spend time putting on. As said, I really don't know but
like to see what the evidence suggests is possible and then whether
it's practical. It is both but, to be frank, I still commonly use a
conventional back tape (as on a theorbo) to avoid faffing about even on
the lute...... But you may care to try it.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Mon, 14/3/11, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap
slips off left shoulder.
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, 14 March, 2011, 14:27
Sorry, I see the message was not in simple text, so here it is again:
Dear Martyn
I do agree that a heavy guitar strap could not be historic, and
most
probably the wider Ahumada strap which is deliberately made to be seen
(as well
as to give maximum support), would not be either. It would seem from
the
iconography that the elegance of a lute invisibly suspended (as you
say) by a
strand of gut, seems rather to have been the tendency, when they
weren't simply
plonked on a table.
Both these systems appear to be depicted in this laurent_de_la_hyre
painting,
which has been shown on our list quite frequently before.
[1]http://tinyurl.com/conmfc
The gut loop, coming from the back of the lute is clearly shown on the
lute on
the table:
as tried by yourself,
"I first tried with a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a
rough
simulation of
heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. " Martyn
I had hoped this historic system, would be very stable, with the lute
suspended
from an ideal point on its back; indeed I was thinking of giving it a
try, and
if it was compatible with my shoulder problem, I would have happily
adopted it.
The solution of stabilizing the lute on a table, as frequently
mentionned here,
[2]http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html
is also shown in this painting, but whether by this period, it was just
for
tuning, or in this case, for maintaining a pose for the artist, I have
no idea.
It clearly was a historic playing solution in the Renaissance period,
see
Robinson, and the iconography:
[3]http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg
Carlos Gonzales, lute maker, tells me he is developing such a lute
table, which
both serves to stabilize as well as to "amplify" the lute, but the
problem of
space and transport does not make that a practical solution for all.
I think many of us would adopt a historical solution, if it gave the
desired
stability and was not too impractical. Perhaps, the solution you
suggest with
"a long tape looped round the back and crossed at the front" could
indeed give
this desired stabilty. Unfortunately. I could not see the engraving
you sent
us, which seems to have been filtered-out, but could it be similar to
this
interesting system shown here, in this painting by Pietro Paolini:
CONCERT DE
MUSICIENS ET DE CHANTEURS, around 1625:
[4]http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/Paolini
Pietro.jpg
Could this also be similar to the solution that Sean has adopted?
I tried to make a quick mock-up of this, but was not very successful.
Nevertheless, I am wondering how far we should feel we have to go
along this
historic route. It would be "nice" to use a historic strap system, but
is it
crucial to reentering the sound world of the period? Historicity, per
se, might
be questioned by some.
David v O in a recent Lute News gives excellent arguments for using gut
strings
as they bring us closer to the microdynamics available to earlier
lute-player
composers.
In order to find similar arguments in favour of adopting historic strap
solutions, should we not have to show that the modern solution prevents
us in
some way (or is at least not conducive) to reconstructing the
composer's sound
world?
If this is not the case, then we may still want to adopt it, just to
look or
feel the part, but it would not be crucial.
I do think that some quite invisible modern aids may effect the
dynamics of the
lute. The rubber carpet underlay used by many to stabilize their
lutes, I feel,
dampens the lute's sound. At least, that is how it seems to me, so I
stopped
using it.
However, I don't think that the wideness of a modern strap, would
effect the
sound; although I do think that the lute's angle (due to the strap's
set-up)
could effect the sound produced through its effect on the RH angle of
attack,
and this therefore could be of historic concern.
I have to admit that in adopting my present set-up, I sacrificed
almost every
thing to resolving my soulder problem, which I feared could bring my
lute
playing to a hault.
I needed to be able to quickly alter the strap length to shift the
"sweet-spot"
so as to avoid developing pain (thus the guitar strap). I also needed
to keep
my left hand as close as possible to my body, so as to minimze the
leverage
force on the shoulder capsule.
I have found the least painful position is an almost theorbo style
(rather like
that of Nigel North). This does not seem to be a style used by French
lutenists (judging by the iconography, although it IS similar to that
shown on
the Pietro Paolini painting), and this unfortunately, will be
effecting my RH
position and angle of attack, and so presumably the sound.
But my lute may also be judged to have a rather too long string
length (70cm)
for French music; and perhaps with a 67cm lute, I could manage a more
horizontal (and historically correct) lute position.
Thus, I am not proning these solutions for all, just trying to
resolve my own
shoulder handicap, with the lute I have at present.
Although, I did chose a red strap over the black equivalent, as it went
better
with the red loaded basses, and somehow looked a little more the part
than the
regular black one.
"We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a
neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The
problem
mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of
rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And
so
I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you
overcome
the problems?" Martyn
I would say, that a wider strap, if not historic, does seem to help
stabilize
the lute, and I wanted as rigid a lute set-up as possible.
I found that, with this strap tied to both lute buttons, if I tilt
the table
of my lute slightly upwards, then there is less tendency for it to
roll, (or to
rock, in spite of what the strap type might suggest ...). The 4th and
5th ribs
from the top (of my 11 rib lute) seem to settle into my stomach shape
(but that
could depend on one's shape). Although, I have my strap quite long,
and not
tight, I can stand and play with the lute remaining quite stable.
Furthermore, I get better feedback from the instrument, which has been
a help to
my playing.
I am not sure this lute angle is historic, although again it is not far
from
that depicted by Paolini.
Regards
Anthony
________________________________
De : Martyn Hodgson <[5][email protected]>
A : Anthony Hind <[6][email protected]>
Cc : [7][email protected]
Envoye le : Ven 11 mars 2011, 15h 15min 11s
Objet : [LUTE] Ribbons to hold (baroque) lutes WAS Re: Strap slips off
left
shoulder.
Dear Anthony,
We discussed using ribbons or tapes fastened to an end botton and a
neck button to hold lutes fairly recently (2009 in fact). The
problem
mentioned then was that the set-up was pretty unstable (a sort of
rotary effect was even mentioned) and certainly I found it so. And
so
I'm interested that you're persisting with this - how did you
overcome
the problems?
I think I know how the early players did since there is one rather
good
illustration of tapes/ribbons coming from waistcoat buttons (or
perhaps
round the players back and coming from the button holes) fastened to
the two buttons. This greatly increases the stability of the
arrangement since these are pretty firmly fixed.There is an
engraving
which seems to show this and I'm attaching it again. It is, to my
knowledge, the ONLY representation showing such an attachment to a
button on the top block and thus a unique examplar of what must, if
the
number of lutes with such buttons are an indication, have been
common
practice from (mid?) 17thC on. Certainly few paintings show a strap
(as
used with theorbos and the like) being used for lute and some (eg
Mouton) seem to have them suspended in mid air almost (tho' perhaps
they might have suggested straps not being shown....)
I've tried it and the system with a long tape looped round the back
and
crossed at the front provides the required stabilty. I first tried
with
a gut loop fastend onto my overcoat buttin (as a rough simulation of
heavy 17th surcoat) but found it horribly unstable. Any other
ideas?
rgds
Martyn
PS I think the heavy wide rock guitar straps are a diversion from
historical practice - surely if such massive straps were ever used
they'd be seen on almost all the representations of people playing
lutes? Ribbons/tapes are much more discrete and, not being over the
shoulder, do not really show at all - hence, presumably, why not
seen
in iconography
--- On Fri, 11/3/11, Anthony Hind <[8][email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Hind <[9][email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
To: "Sean Smith" <[10][email protected]>, "Herbert Ward"
<[11][email protected]>
Cc: [12][email protected]
Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 10:36
On my Baroque lute, I attach both ends to the lute bowl,
although
the
button at the front end occasionally pops out!
I am using a red suede leather terminated guitar strap, but as
the
strap tends to slip off the shoulder, I have sown rubber
undercarpet
material to the underside of the strap (the same material as
many
people use on their lap).
I have turned the strap over to show this, here:
[1][1][13]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
It may seem inelegant, but it doesn't show when playing.
The only problem is that this material , with prolonged contact,
can
take the varnish off the lute (or mark it, as did happen to me),
so
another solution could be to use a thick velvet, similar to
that
used
on this lute strap, by Jose Antonio Ahumada:
[2][2][14]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
Indeed, I would use this strap type, as it grips on to the
shoulder
very well, except that you can't control the strap length quite
so
well.
The grip is even better if you can have the strap tight, but that
means
holding your lute high on the chest. As Benjamin Narvey is doing
here:
[3][3][15]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
I used to do this, as I could then either stand or sit, but
having
had
a frozen shoulder (adhesive capsulitisis), I now have to hold
my
lute
as low as possible, so as to put minimum strain on the shoulder
area.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Sean Smith <[4][16][email protected]>
A : [5][17][email protected]
Envoye le : Jeu 10 mars 2011, 19h 20min 18s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
Thanks, Roman, but this shouldn't be taken as an illustration of
what I
meant. I'm sorry that I don't have the means to throw it up on
the
web
at the moment.
Think stabilizing triangle from strap-end to pegbox.
s
On Mar 10, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Roman Turovsky
<[4][6][18][email protected]>
wrote:
> I've made a little chart of how to tie the strap to prevent
rolling/slipping:
> [5][7][19]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
> RT'
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Smith"
<[6][8][20][email protected]>
> To: <[7][9][21][email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:43 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Strap slips off left shoulder.
>
>
>> Tie the strap off at the butt end of lute in the usual way.
Where
the strap ends over the left shoulder attach a long loop of
string
(I
like a dark shoelace). Let one end run over the peg at the nut
end
of
the pegbox and the other at the tip (or wherever you like
considering
all those pegs to choose from). Make a few loops around varius
pegs
on
the far side to finetune the length and to keep it from
traveling.
>>
>> I've done this for years. I can stand or sit and expect zero
lute
rotation. It also keeps my shoulders 'square' and non slumpy
which
may
help your slippage problem.
>>
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> On Mar 9, 2011, at 7:20 PM, Herbert Ward
<[8][10][22][email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In playing my 13-course, the strap is constantly on the verge
>>> of slipping backwards off my left shoulder. To a lesser
extent
>>> this happens with my Renaissance lute also. Any suggeestions
>>> besides safety-pinning the strap to my shirt?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>
[9][11][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>
>
--
References
1. [12][24]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
2. [13][25]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
3. [14][26]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
4. mailto:[15][27][email protected]
5. [16][28]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
6. mailto:[17][29][email protected]
7. mailto:[18][30][email protected]
8. mailto:[19][31][email protected]
9.
[20][32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. [33]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
2. [34]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
3. [35]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
4.
[36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
5.
[37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
6.
[38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
7. [39]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
8.
[40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
9.
[41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
10.
[42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
du
11. [43]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. [44]http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
13. [45]http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
14. [46]http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
15.
[47]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
16. [48]http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
17.
[49]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
18.
[50]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
19.
[51]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
du
20. [52]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://tinyurl.com/conmfc
2. http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg16231.html
3. http://www.wga.hu/art/c/costa/lorenzo/concert.jpg
4.
http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Iconographie/Joconde/PaoliniPietro.jpg
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
13. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
14. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
15. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
19. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
25. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
26. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
28. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
29. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
30. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
33. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
34. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
35. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
37. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
38. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
39. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
40. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
41. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
42. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
43. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
44. http://tinyurl.com/67qfg6x
45. http://tinyurl.com/4g27r7d
46. http://tinyurl.com/4wbw8d8
47. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
48. http://torban.org/images/strap.jpg
49. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
50. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
51. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
52. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
