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Hey, William and all, Very good points about subjectivity and individual differences in wood, and my question about Mace was actually that, William. It was just my memory of a reading maybe 35 years ago, so thanks for clarifying. I hope I'm accurately remembering his advice to keep my lute in my bed [?]. In re: older soundboards made of better materials: I'm reminded of Benvenuto Cellini complaining, ca. 1560, that you just couldn't get good stuff any more. Be well, Chris. On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 3:09 AM, William Samson <[email protected]>wrote: > I agree with most of the comments you make, Chris. > > I have a couple of lutes that are between 30 and 40 years old - one of > them (with a Sitka spruce soundboard) sounded better when new and now > sounds quite harsh in comparison to its earlier state. The other one > (Swiss pine soundboard) has improved with age and although the bridge had > to be glued back on a few years ago, I find it is easier now to produce a > nice tone from it than when it was new. The caveat is, of course, that all > this is quite subjective and my technique has changed radically over the > past 40 years - from guitar technique with nails, guitar technique without > nails, pinky-down-thumb-inside technique, and nowadays the thumb creeping > outside and also playing closer to the bridge to emulate how I think the > old ones played their lutes in the 17th century. > > Where I take issue, though, is that as far as I can tell Mace doesn't > advocate regular replacement of the soundboard. He does, however, give > instructions on how to carefully remove the soundboard, repair loose bars, > cracks etc, and glue it back down satisfactorily once repairs are done. > > I keep hearing stories of lutes, just a decade or two old, having their > soundboards replaced with brand new ones. I can't understand the > motivation behind this unless the old soundboard was made of very poor wood > or very badly made. Generally speaking, though, I find that the older > soundboards are made from better wood, with a tighter grain, than is > generally available nowadays. My gut feeling is that the tone and response > of the instrument is dominated by the soundboard, so replacing a soundboard > with a new one could radically alter the way the instrument sounds. I > wonder what seemingly irreparable soundboard faults cause players to throw > away the whole soundboard in exchange for a new one? > > Anyway, if you are thinking of replacing your soundboard, I'll happily pay > postage and packing expenses if you'll send your old one to me :) > > Bill > > *From:* Christopher Stetson <[email protected]> > *To:* [email protected] > *Sent:* Sunday, 22 April 2012, 2:59 > *Subject:* [LUTE] Re: Why no active historical lutes? > > Hi, everyone, > > I've been waiting for one of the luthiers on the list to reply, but > since they haven't, I'll toss in that it's my understanding that the > physical forces of strings pulling on the glued-down bridges of lutes, > which then torque the bridge against the very thin soundboard, are > quite different from those of strings pushing down on violin bridges, > which transmit the force downward onto the more robust, carved > soundboards, all of which results in lutes tending to come apart more > quickly than violins do. Also, I believe that in the opinion of some, > at least, because of these different structures and forces, while > violins tend to sound better as they age, the sound quality of lutes > (and guitars with glued-down bridges) tends to deteriorate over time. > Perhaps some luthier list-members could confirm, deny, or nuance? > Doesn't Mace talk of having his soundboards replaced on a regular > basis? > > Best to all, and keep playing. > > Chris. > > On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Edward Mast <[1][email protected]> > wrote: > > I think one or two may have survived un-modified (perhaps the > "Messiah"?). Also, Yo Yo Ma 'de-modified' one of his strad cellos > (I believe I've read this), reconfiguring it as a Baroque > instrument. (How much of a shame the modifications are depends upon > who you're talking with, of course). > -Ned > > On Apr 21, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Sam Chapman wrote: > > Just for the record, I don't think any of those Stradivarius violins > > are in anything like their original condition. Which is a real shame. > > > > All the best, > > > > Sam > > > > On 20 April 2012 20:23, Herbert Ward <[2][email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> According to Wikipedia, there are many Strativarius violins > >> in active use today: > >> [3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > >> > >> But I never hear of anyone playing a historical lute routinely. > >> In fact, it seems rare for anyone to even handle one. > >> > >> Is this because the thin soundboard becomes fragile with age? > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > > Sam Chapman > > Oetlingerstrasse 65 > > 4057 Basel > > (0041) 79 530 39 91 > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[email protected] > 2. mailto:[email protected] > 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > --bcaec5016687cba6b704be4413dd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class="gmail_extra">Hey, William and all,</div><div class="gmail_extra"> </div><div class="gmail_extra">Very good points about subjectivity and individual differences in wood, and my question about Mace was actually that, William. It was just my memory of a reading maybe 35 years ago, so thanks for clarifying. I hope I'm accurately remembering his advice to keep my lute in my bed <img style="margin: 0px 0.2ex; vertical-align: middle;" src="cid:[email protected]" width="12" height="15" goomoji="360">. </div> <div class="gmail_extra"> </div><div class="gmail_extra">In re: older soundboards made of better materials: I'm reminded of Benvenuto Cellini complaining, ca. 1560, that you just couldn't get good stuff any more.</div> <div class="gmail_extra"> </div><div class="gmail_extra">Be well,</div><div class="gmail_extra">Chris.<br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 3:09 AM, William Samson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote"><div><div style="font-family:tahoma,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"> <div><span>I agree with most of the comments you make, Chris.</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>I have a couple of lutes that are between 30 and 40 years old - one of them (with a Sitka spruce soundboard) sounded better when new and now sounds quite harsh in comparison to its earlier state. The other one (Swiss pine soundboard) has improved with age and although the bridge had to be glued back on a few years ago, I find it is easier now to produce a nice tone from it than when it was new. The caveat is, of course, that all this is quite subjective and my technique has changed radically over the past 40 years - from guitar technique with nails, guitar technique without nails, pinky-down-thumb-inside technique, and nowadays the thumb creeping outside and also playing closer to the bridge to emulate how I think the old ones played their lutes in the 17th century.</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>Where I take issue, though, is that as far as I can tell Mace doesn't advocate regular replacement of the soundboard. He does, however, give instructions on how to carefully remove the soundboard, repair loose bars, cracks etc, and glue it back down satisfactorily once repairs are done. </span></div> <div><span></span> </div><div><span>I keep hearing stories of lutes, just a decade or two old, having their soundboards replaced with brand new ones. I can't understand the motivation behind this unless the old soundboard was made of very poor wood or very badly made. Generally speaking, though, I find that the older soundboards are made from better wood, with a tighter grain, than is generally available nowadays. My gut feeling is that the tone and response of the instrument is dominated by the soundboard, so replacing a soundboard with a new one could radically alter the way the instrument sounds. I wonder what seemingly irreparable soundboard faults cause players to throw away the whole soundboard in exchange for a new one?</span></div> <div><span></span> </div><div><span>Anyway, if you are thinking of replacing your soundboard, I'll happily pay postage and packing expenses if you'll send your old one to me :)</span></div><div><span></span> </div> <div><span>Bill</span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:tahoma,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <div style="margin:5px 0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);line-height:0;font-size:0px;min-height:0px" readonly> </div> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Christopher Stetson <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, 22 April 2012, 2:59<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [LUTE] Re: Why no active historical lutes?<br> </font> </div><div><div class="h5"> <br> Hi, everyone,<br><br> I've been waiting for one of the luthiers on the list to reply, but<br> since they haven't, I'll toss in that it's my understanding that the<br> physical forces of strings pulling on the glued-down bridges of lutes,<br> which then torque the bridge against the very thin soundboard, are<br> quite different from those of strings pushing down on violin bridges,<br> which transmit the force downward onto the more robust, carved<br> soundboards, all of which results in lutes tending to come apart more<br> quickly than violins do. Also, I believe that in the opinion of some,<br> at least, because of these different structures and forces, while<br> violins tend to sound better as they age, the sound quality of lutes<br> (and guitars with glued-down bridges) tends to deteriorate over time.<br> Perhaps some luthier list-members could confirm, deny, or nuance?<br> Doesn't Mace talk of having his soundboards replaced on a regular<br> basis?<br><br> Best to all, and keep playing.<br><br> Chris.<br><br> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Edward Mast <[1]<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>><br> wrote:<br> <br> I think one or two may have survived un-modified (perhaps the<br> "Messiah"?). Also, Yo Yo Ma 'de-modified' one of his strad cellos<br> (I believe I've read this), reconfiguring it as a Baroque<br> instrument. (How much of a shame the modifications are depends upon<br> who you're talking with, of course).<br> -Ned<br><br> On Apr 21, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Sam Chapman wrote:<br> > Just for the record, I don't think any of those Stradivarius violins<br> > are in anything like their original condition. Which is a real shame.<br> ><br> > All the best,<br> ><br> > Sam<br> ><br> > On 20 April 2012 20:23, Herbert Ward <[2]<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>><br> wrote:<br> >><br> >> According to Wikipedia, there are many Strativarius violins<br> >> in active use today:<br> >> [3]<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments"; target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments</a><br> >><br> >> But I never hear of anyone playing a historical lute routinely.<br> >> In fact, it seems rare for anyone to even handle one.<br> >><br> >> Is this because the thin soundboard becomes fragile with age?<br> >><br> >> --<br> >><br> >><br> >><br> >> To get on or off this list see list information at<br> >> [4]<a href="http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html</a><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > --<br> > Sam Chapman<br> > Oetlingerstrasse 65<br> > 4057 Basel<br> > (0041) 79 530 39 91<br> ><br> ><br><br> --<br><br>References<br><br> 1. mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a><br> 2. mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a><br> 3. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments"; target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments</a><br> 4. <a href="http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html</a><br><br><br><br> </div></div></div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div><div class="gmail_extra"> <br></div> --bcaec5016687cba6b704be4413dd-- --
