Dear Martin, The question of the heritage of the Gerle lute is very interesting. I can't help feeling that Robert Lundberg rather muddied the waters by stating in his book that it was built in 1580 and that 'it is thought to illustrate what they felt the earlier instruments looked like' without offering any evidence or argument to support that idea. I don't profess to know the definitive answer myself, but I note that Stephen Barber & Sandi Harris consider it to be a genuine 6 course lute: http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat01.htm
And by way of analogy, Gibson still build reissues of their 1930's flat top guitars, and still know exactly how they were made because plenty of the now treasured originals are still around. It seems plausible that similar considerations would apply to 16c lutes. The oldest lute in my own collection was built in 1978 and is showing no signs of failing in any way just yet. Hopefully it's good for at least another 30 years... So I would be interested to know whether there is any other evidence that supports Lundberg's view on the Gerle, or if it was just an opinion of his that has transmuted itself into a fact. Best wishes, Denys -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin Shepherd Sent: 22 April 2012 19:35 To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Why no active historical lutes? Thanks for your vote of confidence, Martyn, but it worries me that we modern makers are too slavish in our adherence to a few (perhaps rather atypical) historical lutes. Obviously I think it's important to study the evidence we do have, but as I'm making a Gerle at the moment I'm acutely aware of the fact that it's not really a "proper" 6c lute because of the circumstances of its commission for a "cabinet of curiousities". There was nothing exotic or curious about a lute in 1580, so perhaps the motivation for its inclusion was that it was made of ivory (as I think were other objects in the cabinet). One could even argue that it was not made to be played! Difficult business, lutemaking.... Best wishes, Martin On 22/04/2012 15:44, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Hi Bill, > > There are many difficulties with bringing early ('historical') lutes > back into use: some of the very real aspects of fragility have been > touched on. But it also depends on what we mean by an 'historical' > instrument since leaving aside one class of lute (more later), almost > all the earliest lutes have been converted to later forms (with a few > exceptions such as the Gerle) with many more courses and it's pretty > clear that even at the time these had limited shelf life if kept at > tension and regularly played (eg Mace's advice to take off and repair > the belly as being something that one might expect to have to do - or > have done). Indeed, it may be that, counter -intuitively, the more > ornamental instruments may be better candidates for modern playing (eg > the more ornate Tielke lutes) since they may have endured only light > use and been kept safe as decorative objects - but one doubts if any > collection would allow them to be strung up and played since a premium > is placed on such objects by museum curators as ornate artistic > artefacts (look at how the V&A treated their instrument collection all > for the sake of few frocks) and these are protected like the crown > jewels. > > So what we are left with is a sort of self-selected group of > instruments, often in a very poor state and very much changed, to > attempt to bring back to some sort of playing condition. Personally, > because so much of such a re-incarnation is highly speculative, I > would far prefer to see these instruments conserved in their present > state for research and future generations. > > However, on the bright side, I'm not so sure that there are no active > 'historical' (ie old) lutes. Leaving aside the old instruments which > have been rebirthed (such as Bailes's probable original gallichon > converted to an 11 course lute or even Lindberg's re-invention of a > Rauwolf lute) there are in fact some lutes which are in playable > condition: some 18th century mandoras! I've had the privilege of > playing a couple (a Stautinger and Anon) but, for safety, strung at > lower tension than I use on a modern reconstruction. Both instruments > were playable and, indeed, I think would have been able to take > significantly higher tensions. In both cases the only significant > 'restoration' which would be necessary to put them back into everyday > practical use would be to reset the neck which had lifted a little. > However even this modest move I would nowadays resist - far preferring > to see old lutes conserved (there are so very few compared with > fiddles) and allowed to be copied. > > Some of the reasons for violin survival have also been mentioned but > one is, I believe, that the domed construction is enormously strong > and, like the the arched bridge, is able to withstand much larger > forces before major distortion. Nevertheless, some flat belied > instruments can be succesfully restored to playing condition: > witness the harpsichord. But even with these, although the soundboards > are often horribly distorted, the heavy framing on all but the lightest > of Italian instruments allows such restringing. Indeed, when I first > played in ensemble with Peter Holman I remember with amazement how he > used to cart his original Kirkman (unrestored - with treble cheek > lifted to boot) around in a van. But in truth the renasissance of the > modern harpsichord probably owes more to makers who eschewed the > Pleyels, Gobles, etc and sought to copy historic models than to > restringing a few old instruments. > > So all power to modern makers like Martin who seek out original > specimens from which to base their instruments - and shame on those > collections and collectors who do not allow open access to their > historic instruments for this purpose..... > > regards > > Martyn > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 22/4/12, William Samson<[email protected]> wrote: > > From: William Samson<[email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Why no active historical lutes? > To: "Christopher Stetson"<[email protected]> > Cc: "Lute List"<[email protected]> > Date: Sunday, 22 April, 2012, 8:09 > > I agree with most of the comments you make, Chris. > I have a couple of lutes that are between 30 and 40 years old - one > of > them (with a Sitka spruce soundboard) sounded better when new and > now > sounds quite harsh in comparison to its earlier state. The other > one > (Swiss pine soundboard) has improved with age and although the > bridge > had to be glued back on a few years ago, I find it is easier now to > produce a nice tone from it than when it was new. The caveat is, of > course, that all this is quite subjective and my technique has > changed > radically over the past 40 years - from guitar technique with nails, > guitar technique without nails, pinky-down-thumb-inside technique, > and > nowadays the thumb creeping outside and also playing closer to the > bridge to emulate how I think the old ones played their lutes in the > 17th century. > Where I take issue, though, is that as far as I can tell Mace > doesn't > advocate regular replacement of the soundboard. He does, however, > give > instructions on how to carefully remove the soundboard, repair loose > bars, cracks etc, and glue it back down satisfactorily once repairs > are > done. > I keep hearing stories of lutes, just a decade or two old, having > their > soundboards replaced with brand new ones. I can't understand the > motivation behind this unless the old soundboard was made of very > poor > wood or very badly made. Generally speaking, though, I find that > the > older soundboards are made from better wood, with a tighter grain, > than > is generally available nowadays. My gut feeling is that the tone > and > response of the instrument is dominated by the soundboard, so > replacing > a soundboard with a new one could radically alter the way the > instrument sounds. I wonder what seemingly irreparable soundboard > faults cause players to throw away the whole soundboard in exchange > for > a new one? > Anyway, if you are thinking of replacing your soundboard, I'll > happily > pay postage and packing expenses if you'll send your old one to me > :) > Bill > From: Christopher Stetson<[1][email protected]> > To: [2][email protected] > Sent: Sunday, 22 April 2012, 2:59 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Why no active historical lutes? > Hi, everyone, > I've been waiting for one of the luthiers on the list to reply, > but > since they haven't, I'll toss in that it's my understanding that > the > physical forces of strings pulling on the glued-down bridges of > lutes, > which then torque the bridge against the very thin soundboard, are > quite different from those of strings pushing down on violin > bridges, > which transmit the force downward onto the more robust, carved > soundboards, all of which results in lutes tending to come apart > more > quickly than violins do. Also, I believe that in the opinion of > some, > at least, because of these different structures and forces, while > violins tend to sound better as they age, the sound quality of > lutes > (and guitars with glued-down bridges) tends to deteriorate over > time. > Perhaps some luthier list-members could confirm, deny, or nuance? > Doesn't Mace talk of having his soundboards replaced on a regular > basis? > Best to all, and keep playing. > Chris. > On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Edward Mast > <[1][1][3][email protected]> > wrote: > I think one or two may have survived un-modified (perhaps the > "Messiah"?). Also, Yo Yo Ma 'de-modified' one of his strad > cellos > (I believe I've read this), reconfiguring it as a Baroque > instrument. (How much of a shame the modifications are depends > upon > who you're talking with, of course). > -Ned > On Apr 21, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Sam Chapman wrote: > > Just for the record, I don't think any of those Stradivarius > violins > > are in anything like their original condition. Which is a real > shame. > > > > All the best, > > > > Sam > > > > On 20 April 2012 20:23, Herbert Ward > <[2][2][4][email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> According to Wikipedia, there are many Strativarius violins > >> in active use today: > >> > [3][3][5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instrumen > ts > >> > >> But I never hear of anyone playing a historical lute routinely. > >> In fact, it seems rare for anyone to even handle one. > >> > >> Is this because the thin soundboard becomes fragile with age? > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [4][4][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > > Sam Chapman > > Oetlingerstrasse 65 > > 4057 Basel > > (0041) 79 530 39 91 > > > > > -- > References > 1. mailto:[5][7][email protected] > 2. mailto:[6][8][email protected] > 3. > [7][9]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > 4. [8][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. mailto:[11][email protected] > 2. mailto:[12][email protected] > 3. [13]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > 4. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. mailto:[15][email protected] > 6. mailto:[16][email protected] > 7. [17]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > 8. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments > 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
