Dear Theo and Bill, Yes, that's the effect I was meaning about maybe a mistake of perspective. In the Platzer the strings *appear* to lie to one side of the neck but we can see the upper pegbox and therefore can see that the lute is at an angle which would produce that effect. However in the St Cecilia we can't see the upper pegbox so we can't tell what's going on, however the lower pegbox and lute front do look very straight on, making the offset strings a problem. If all is correct, then the upper pegbox must be offset, hence problem.
And thanks Bill for finding it in the Nat Gall of Ireland. I may be up the wrong tree by questioning the transparent wings, I now notice the same effect in several of his paintings. Best wishes, David At 14:47 -0500 4/2/13, [email protected] wrote: >I'll try again: >http://www.lutevoice.com/luteiconography/Page%204.html >Got to the painting by J.G. Platzer; an apparently non-offset >theorbo neck extension. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: William Samson <[email protected]> >To: David Van Edwards <[email protected]> >Cc: Lute List <[email protected]> >Sent: Mon, Feb 4, 2013 1:53 pm >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute painting > > > Hi David, > > Looks like it's in the National Gallery of Ireland. > [1]http://www.nationalgallery.ie/en/aboutus/Images_and_Licensing/Print_ > Sales/Music%20and%20Dance/Saint%20Cecilia.aspx > > Looking at this reproduction, there are a couple of misty wingtips as > if the guy who added the wings had changed his mind about where they > should be at some point. > > The woman at the harpsichord has a halo (- later addition?). This may > account for it's "St Cecilia" title. She looks very mature (and > happy) in comparison with other depictions of the saint. As you say, > the angels don't look particularly other-worldly. > > Great fun, this speculation! > > Bill > From: David Van Edwards <[email protected]> > To: William Samson <[email protected]> > Cc: Lute List <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, 4 February 2013, 17:54 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute painting > Dear Bill, > Yes to all of that! > Meanwhile if we wonder about alterations, do you notice that you can > see right through one of the wings to the windowframe behind? Frankly > the wings look rather out of period and style when taken together > with > the secular detailed nature of the clothing. The nice touch of the > tuning hammer on the ironed cloth by the harpsichord also suggests > the > artist knew the other instrument too. It all looks very domestic, not > quite how I imagine the angels behaving, and anyway where are the > wings > of the motherly soul playing harpsichord? > Do you happen to know where it lives at the moment? > Best wishes, > David > At 17:41 +0000 4/2/13, William Samson wrote: > Hi David and Roman, > Yes - The Rauwolf/Molinaer type what what first occurred to me, but > the basses wouldn't be offset in that case. Another oddity is the > very narrow, parallel-sided neck which wouldn't match Rauwolf (or > any other lute) either. And yet, to me, the body of the lute is > perfectly proportioned - Rose in the right place; bridge details > correct - suggesting that the artist knew his lutes. So why the > odd > neck? > I wonder if the painting was altered at some stage by another > artist? Maybe it was originally a big 7c or 8c instrument and > somebody decided to bring it 'up to date' with an extended neck and > a load of diapasons. > Anyway - I very much doubt if we've hit upon a new, hitherto > unknown > lute type. > Best regards, > Bill > From: David Van Edwards <[2][email protected]> > To: William Samson <[3][email protected]> > Cc: Lute List <[4][email protected]> > Sent: Monday, 4 February 2013, 15:07 > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute painting > Dear Bill, > I assume one of these. > [1][5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/93.tif > Sixtus Rauwolf Augsburg 1599 now in Copenhagen No. 93 > This is the sole survivor of this type that Molenaer made famous. > But > your painting has the lower strings offset in in a strange, rather > excessive, manner. Maybe a case of dodgy perspective rather than > distortion. But if the offset is genuine then the upper pegbox must > be something other, and to me unknown. > Best wishes, > David > At 13:54 +0000 4/2/13, William Samson wrote: > > I wonder what the layout of the upper head of this lute might > be? > > > > [1][2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/party-1.gif > > > > Artist Jacopo Vignale, early 17th Century. > > > > Bill > > > > -- > > > >References > > > > 1. [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/party-1.gif > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >[4][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB > England. > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: [5][9]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB > England. > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: [10]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > -- > References > 1. [11]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/93.tif > 2. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/party-1.gif > 3. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/party-1.gif > 4. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. [15]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > > -- > >References > > 1. >http://www.nationalgallery.ie/en/aboutus/Images_and_Licensing/Print_Sales/Music%20and%20Dance/Saint%20Cecilia.aspx > 2. mailto:[email protected] > 3. mailto:[email protected] > 4. mailto:[email protected] > 5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/93.tif > 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/party-1.gif > 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/party-1.gif > 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 9. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 10. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > 11. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/93.tif > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/party-1.gif > 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/party-1.gif > 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 15. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ > > > > >-- -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
