No disrespect meant at all to David Tayler. That was squarely delivered to the people making those comments about whichever videos he was talking about. The original quote:
>>> Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about >>> the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups >>> as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the >>> same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the >>> same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub >>> after an orchestra rehearsal. "Did you see this. OMG how could they not >>> know?" What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but >>> they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same >>> commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a >>> litany. On Aug 9, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Dan Winheld <[email protected]> wrote: > "Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third > while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and > with appropriate ornaments and affect." > > Yes it does. If you are stopped cold in your tracks by an unfamiliar clef, > that will end the collaboration instantly. Not too much will happen in the > way of ornamentation either. Of course, it has been said that what occurs > between the notes, and the silences in music, also can have the greatest > meaning- so I will give "affect" a pass. > > "What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like "they > played the wrong chord and didn't even know"?" > > Is this disrespect necessary? Dr. Tayler has been in the music business for a > lifetime- we have no knowledge of every single incident that transpired in > all of his engagements over a long & busy professional career. I've > seen/heard some pretty cringeworthy Early Music performances myself, but more > in the earlier days of the Early Music revival. There have been a number of > somewhat different "Bubbles" that we have all lived in; both in time, place, > and circumstances. I have a couple hair of raising stories myself- playing > the lute outside for some homeless people in the S.F. Fillmore district, gigs > in honky-tonk rural bars, and one in a maximum security ward of a psychiatric > institution in Manhattan. Wrong chords in bad places are really not an > impossibility. > > Dan > > On 8/9/2013 2:35 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: >> I don't know who is living in the bigger bubble. I know lots of Early Music >> performers from diverse countries and backgrounds not to mention all the >> exposure from being on the Board of Directors of 3 music organizations (EMA, >> Apollo's Fire, LSA). I have never heard the laughably ridiculous >> characterizations you quote. I guess those lute players really are bottom of >> the barrel, directing BEMF, Tempesta di Mari and such. Really should replace >> O'Dette and Stubbs in Boston with a couple of cornetto players, that will >> finally raise the bar. >> >> This "no short cuts" business reminds me of what my Medical School anatomy >> professor told us about the good ol days. When he was a student, your >> anatomy exam included sticking your hand in a closed bag containing several >> small bones of the foot which you had to identify by feel. Fundamental >> skill? You could identify those bones by smell and still be unable to cut >> your way out of a paper bag in the operating room. It also reminds me of the >> life story of the great German baritone Thomas Quasthoff who was denied >> entrance to his local conservatory because all singers had to be able to >> play the piano. >> >> What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like "they played >> the wrong chord and didn't even know"? I guess in their conservatory, they >> were taught to telegraph facially to the audience whenever they played >> parallel fifths or a wrong figure because of course that's the only way >> anyone in the audience would know. >> >> Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third >> while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and >> with appropriate ornaments and affect. The stultifying performances of many >> a conservatory graduate can attest to that. I suggest a good reason for >> smart talented lute players NOT to have the same skill sets of these "top >> musicians" is that in fact they are smart and talented and have more >> fruitful things to do with their time (like tune and change frets). >> >> >> Danny >> >> >> On Aug 8, 2013, at 7:57 PM, David Tayler <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I think this is an interesting question, and I will risk posting an >>> honest answer. The answer depends on who is "The General Public". I >>> divide the groups as: the 200 countries of YouTube distribution, >>> Academics, other lute players, people in the Early Music scene, and >>> modern musicians, as these are the groups frequently mentioned here. >>> First off, however, I must note that at a good conservatory or college >>> offering a real music major, you are expected to play the piano, read >>> figured bass and pass a score reading exam using multiple staves of an >>> orchestra work and transposing clefs. >>> I mention this because of the puzzling stories about people who can >>> play the keyboard and transpose and so on. That is an entry level >>> skill, and a requirement. I had to take two years of piano to pass the >>> exam, along with all the other students, and that was to get just a >>> basic BA in music. Hours of piano lab, hours of practice, and everyone >>> had to do it, no exceptions. I had to take an even harder exam to be >>> admitted for the MA, which included a test in Fugue writing and >>> counterpoint. Basic training, basic training for just the BA. However, >>> in many European systems, the requirements are more strict. >>> So although I think it is cool that there are these stories, I think >>> the very fact that we tell these stories sends the message to the >>> General Public that, unfortunately, we didn't finish basic training. >>> And what kind of a message is that? Most professional musicians on the >>> violin, cello, piano, harpsichord, and so on, had to work to get these >>> skills just to get into the Conservatory. They expect everyone to do >>> these things fluently. This explains some of the "attitude" from modern >>> players. Rightly or wrongly, they look at the basic training. And they >>> had teachers who said, in a unified voice "no shortcuts." >>> And that in no way means that the people in the lute stories are not >>> good musicians, because they often are, but think for a moment if you >>> played in any original, historical French baroque opera what you would >>> have to do. You would have to read multiple clefs, including double >>> figured (figures on both sides of the staff) baritone clef with the F >>> on the middle line, and short score the other parts, none of which line >>> up with anything familiar. >>> Way harder than playing the piano. Most harpsichordists and organists >>> who play opera can do this, most lute players cannot do this. Yes, it >>> is harder on the lute. But the musical skills are the same and no >>> harder. >>> As far as the General Population of the Planet, the vast majority have >>> no idea what a lute is, and lute players would be regarded as an >>> historical oddity from movies and TV shows, e.g., cameo appearances of >>> "Game of Thrones" or "House." Followers of Sting would have a very >>> hazy idea that it is the funny looking instrument from Sting's foray >>> into Early Music, but not much more. Certainly the YouTube boom has >>> marginally improved awareness, however, most of the YouTube videos are >>> not intended to be recordings in the sense of a produced recording. >>> There's no one playing the lute on YouTube who can even remotely >>> approach the chops of say for example the 14 year old girl who plays >>> the Vivaldi Four Seasons on the guitar. The GPOTP may not know much, >>> but they know raw talent. >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGfO2Dgc9Y >>> As far as other lute players, lute players are highly regarded. This >>> means we live in a bubble. >>> As far as other Early Music musicians, sadly, but undeniably, lute >>> players are regarded as the worst musicians. Bottom of the Barrel. That >>> is, there is no other instrument that has a lower reputation, with the >>> possible exception of the Krummhorn. The reason for this is >>> complicated, but basically has to do with anecdotal stories that >>> circulate about lute players in ensembles, basic sight reading, rhythm, >>> score reading, ensemble skills and so on. The situation has changed >>> slightly in the last few years, as more continuo players enter the >>> pool. However, recorder players, cornetto, harpsichord, organ, oboe and >>> viol players nowadays have advanced training, especially in notation >>> and ornamentation, but also in ensemble playing and rhythmic training, >>> that lute players just don't have. Their bar is higher. >>> Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about >>> the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups >>> as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the >>> same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the >>> same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub >>> after an orchestra rehearsal. "Did you see this. OMG how could they not >>> know?" What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but >>> they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same >>> commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a >>> litany. >>> I think the videos are a great thing, and of course many of them are >>> meant to be sharing, rather than comparing, but there is a PR downside. >>> As far as modern players, when I play with a modern orchestra like the, >>> the reception is normally warm and inviting. I don't get the reaction I >>> got thirty years ago. Orchestra players often have worked with >>> crossover conductors who are active in both worlds. >>> As far as academia, most people in a university environment will have >>> some idea of what a lute is, but not much more than "Game of Thrones". >>> Lute players are smart, talented people. There's no reason that they >>> can't have the same skill sets as the top musicians in the world, just >>> as they did in the renaissance. >>> dt >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >
