That's just fun trivia. As to the matter at hand, right on, Danny. Sent from my Ouija board
On Aug 10, 2013, at 4:20 AM, "John Lenti" <[email protected]> wrote: > You guys know that transposing down a third while reading baritone clef means > you're reading bass clef, right? Somebody plunks bari clef on your stand, > first thing you do is affect a thoughtful air and say "you get such a pretty, > plummy sound in your middle range....this might sound crazy, but let's try it > down a third, what do you say?" "Can you really transpose it at sight?" "Of > course, I'm not some kind of hack!" So, transposing bari clef at sight is, in > fact, easier, than reading it at pitch. > > Sent from my Ouija board > > On Aug 9, 2013, at 5:23 PM, "Daniel Shoskes" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> No disrespect meant at all to David Tayler. That was squarely delivered to >> the people making those comments about whichever videos he was talking >> about. The original quote: >> >>>>> Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about >>>>> the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups >>>>> as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the >>>>> same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the >>>>> same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub >>>>> after an orchestra rehearsal. "Did you see this. OMG how could they not >>>>> know?" What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but >>>>> they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same >>>>> commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a >>>>> litany. >> >> >> On Aug 9, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Dan Winheld <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> "Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third >>> while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively >>> and with appropriate ornaments and affect." >>> >>> Yes it does. If you are stopped cold in your tracks by an unfamiliar clef, >>> that will end the collaboration instantly. Not too much will happen in the >>> way of ornamentation either. Of course, it has been said that what occurs >>> between the notes, and the silences in music, also can have the greatest >>> meaning- so I will give "affect" a pass. >>> >>> "What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like "they >>> played the wrong chord and didn't even know"?" >>> >>> Is this disrespect necessary? Dr. Tayler has been in the music business for >>> a lifetime- we have no knowledge of every single incident that transpired >>> in all of his engagements over a long & busy professional career. I've >>> seen/heard some pretty cringeworthy Early Music performances myself, but >>> more in the earlier days of the Early Music revival. There have been a >>> number of somewhat different "Bubbles" that we have all lived in; both in >>> time, place, and circumstances. I have a couple hair of raising stories >>> myself- playing the lute outside for some homeless people in the S.F. >>> Fillmore district, gigs in honky-tonk rural bars, and one in a maximum >>> security ward of a psychiatric institution in Manhattan. Wrong chords in >>> bad places are really not an impossibility. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> On 8/9/2013 2:35 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: >>>> I don't know who is living in the bigger bubble. I know lots of Early >>>> Music performers from diverse countries and backgrounds not to mention all >>>> the exposure from being on the Board of Directors of 3 music organizations >>>> (EMA, Apollo's Fire, LSA). I have never heard the laughably ridiculous >>>> characterizations you quote. I guess those lute players really are bottom >>>> of the barrel, directing BEMF, Tempesta di Mari and such. Really should >>>> replace O'Dette and Stubbs in Boston with a couple of cornetto players, >>>> that will finally raise the bar. >>>> >>>> This "no short cuts" business reminds me of what my Medical School anatomy >>>> professor told us about the good ol days. When he was a student, your >>>> anatomy exam included sticking your hand in a closed bag containing >>>> several small bones of the foot which you had to identify by feel. >>>> Fundamental skill? You could identify those bones by smell and still be >>>> unable to cut your way out of a paper bag in the operating room. It also >>>> reminds me of the life story of the great German baritone Thomas Quasthoff >>>> who was denied entrance to his local conservatory because all singers had >>>> to be able to play the piano. >>>> >>>> What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like "they played >>>> the wrong chord and didn't even know"? I guess in their conservatory, they >>>> were taught to telegraph facially to the audience whenever they played >>>> parallel fifths or a wrong figure because of course that's the only way >>>> anyone in the audience would know. >>>> >>>> Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third >>>> while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively >>>> and with appropriate ornaments and affect. The stultifying performances of >>>> many a conservatory graduate can attest to that. I suggest a good reason >>>> for smart talented lute players NOT to have the same skill sets of these >>>> "top musicians" is that in fact they are smart and talented and have more >>>> fruitful things to do with their time (like tune and change frets). >>>> >>>> >>>> Danny >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 8, 2013, at 7:57 PM, David Tayler <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think this is an interesting question, and I will risk posting an >>>>> honest answer. The answer depends on who is "The General Public". I >>>>> divide the groups as: the 200 countries of YouTube distribution, >>>>> Academics, other lute players, people in the Early Music scene, and >>>>> modern musicians, as these are the groups frequently mentioned here. >>>>> First off, however, I must note that at a good conservatory or college >>>>> offering a real music major, you are expected to play the piano, read >>>>> figured bass and pass a score reading exam using multiple staves of an >>>>> orchestra work and transposing clefs. >>>>> I mention this because of the puzzling stories about people who can >>>>> play the keyboard and transpose and so on. That is an entry level >>>>> skill, and a requirement. I had to take two years of piano to pass the >>>>> exam, along with all the other students, and that was to get just a >>>>> basic BA in music. Hours of piano lab, hours of practice, and everyone >>>>> had to do it, no exceptions. I had to take an even harder exam to be >>>>> admitted for the MA, which included a test in Fugue writing and >>>>> counterpoint. Basic training, basic training for just the BA. However, >>>>> in many European systems, the requirements are more strict. >>>>> So although I think it is cool that there are these stories, I think >>>>> the very fact that we tell these stories sends the message to the >>>>> General Public that, unfortunately, we didn't finish basic training. >>>>> And what kind of a message is that? Most professional musicians on the >>>>> violin, cello, piano, harpsichord, and so on, had to work to get these >>>>> skills just to get into the Conservatory. They expect everyone to do >>>>> these things fluently. This explains some of the "attitude" from modern >>>>> players. Rightly or wrongly, they look at the basic training. And they >>>>> had teachers who said, in a unified voice "no shortcuts." >>>>> And that in no way means that the people in the lute stories are not >>>>> good musicians, because they often are, but think for a moment if you >>>>> played in any original, historical French baroque opera what you would >>>>> have to do. You would have to read multiple clefs, including double >>>>> figured (figures on both sides of the staff) baritone clef with the F >>>>> on the middle line, and short score the other parts, none of which line >>>>> up with anything familiar. >>>>> Way harder than playing the piano. Most harpsichordists and organists >>>>> who play opera can do this, most lute players cannot do this. Yes, it >>>>> is harder on the lute. But the musical skills are the same and no >>>>> harder. >>>>> As far as the General Population of the Planet, the vast majority have >>>>> no idea what a lute is, and lute players would be regarded as an >>>>> historical oddity from movies and TV shows, e.g., cameo appearances of >>>>> "Game of Thrones" or "House." Followers of Sting would have a very >>>>> hazy idea that it is the funny looking instrument from Sting's foray >>>>> into Early Music, but not much more. Certainly the YouTube boom has >>>>> marginally improved awareness, however, most of the YouTube videos are >>>>> not intended to be recordings in the sense of a produced recording. >>>>> There's no one playing the lute on YouTube who can even remotely >>>>> approach the chops of say for example the 14 year old girl who plays >>>>> the Vivaldi Four Seasons on the guitar. The GPOTP may not know much, >>>>> but they know raw talent. >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGfO2Dgc9Y >>>>> As far as other lute players, lute players are highly regarded. This >>>>> means we live in a bubble. >>>>> As far as other Early Music musicians, sadly, but undeniably, lute >>>>> players are regarded as the worst musicians. Bottom of the Barrel. That >>>>> is, there is no other instrument that has a lower reputation, with the >>>>> possible exception of the Krummhorn. The reason for this is >>>>> complicated, but basically has to do with anecdotal stories that >>>>> circulate about lute players in ensembles, basic sight reading, rhythm, >>>>> score reading, ensemble skills and so on. The situation has changed >>>>> slightly in the last few years, as more continuo players enter the >>>>> pool. However, recorder players, cornetto, harpsichord, organ, oboe and >>>>> viol players nowadays have advanced training, especially in notation >>>>> and ornamentation, but also in ensemble playing and rhythmic training, >>>>> that lute players just don't have. Their bar is higher. >>>>> Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about >>>>> the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups >>>>> as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the >>>>> same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the >>>>> same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub >>>>> after an orchestra rehearsal. "Did you see this. OMG how could they not >>>>> know?" What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but >>>>> they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same >>>>> commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a >>>>> litany. >>>>> I think the videos are a great thing, and of course many of them are >>>>> meant to be sharing, rather than comparing, but there is a PR downside. >>>>> As far as modern players, when I play with a modern orchestra like the, >>>>> the reception is normally warm and inviting. I don't get the reaction I >>>>> got thirty years ago. Orchestra players often have worked with >>>>> crossover conductors who are active in both worlds. >>>>> As far as academia, most people in a university environment will have >>>>> some idea of what a lute is, but not much more than "Game of Thrones". >>>>> Lute players are smart, talented people. There's no reason that they >>>>> can't have the same skill sets as the top musicians in the world, just >>>>> as they did in the renaissance. >>>>> dt >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
