An Italian lutenist told me it was the equivalent of "de-orba", to "de orb" thus to blind, the initial, 'd' would frequently be devoiced, giving teorba, but it is notoriously difficult to prove the etymology of a single word, and the explanation while amusing seems "un peu tirée par les cheveux" as they say in France. Regards Anthony
On 31 janv. 2014, at 20:00, Arto Wikla <wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > Jakob Lindberg had a funny speculation: In the old Venice dialect "ti orba" > meant "I'll blind you". > Just think the problems with the long extension neck... > > Once I happened to hit the director of a choir, when he arrived to the front > of the choir and me with the theorbo; tiny river of blood in his head did not > harm his work, luckily... > > Arto > > On 31/01/14 23:45, Arthur Ness wrote: >> What is the etymology of the word "tiorba"? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf >> Of Martyn Hodgson >> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM >> To: David Tayler; lute >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 >> >> As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about >> tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a >> particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the >> archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave (ie >> non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your >> stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different names >> for the same instrument('The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are >> high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of the >> tablature sources >> MH >> __________________________________________________________________ >> >> From: David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal.net> >> To: lute <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 >> I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form >> of >> notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant >> composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that >> it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient >> in >> showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo >> movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as >> well, such as ornamentation. >> Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not >> fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of >> square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms >> "high-degree interchangeable". >> Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there >> is >> no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the >> "absence" >> is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer >> styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition. >> dt >> __________________________________________________________________ >> From: jean-michel Catherinot <[1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> >> To: R. Mattes <[2]r...@mh-freiburg.de>; lute >> <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Martyn >> Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1 >> Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider >> that >> most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be >> this >> is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that >> tuning >> is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for >> arciliuto >> and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide: >> ambitus >> and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said, >> obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others >> it >> seems, I'm trying to list them), and the "concerti" from Harrach >> collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of >> the >> solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto >> with >> two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from >> the >> Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the >> Royal >> Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for >> arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at >> Rohrau. >> Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while >> renaming >> the picture untitled "tuorbe" in "archiluth", he corrects a mistake >> he >> has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives >> quite >> clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two >> tunings for archiluth in G and A. >> Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject, >> but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence of >> the >> use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be used, >> it's >> very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note). >> The >> only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning >> could >> be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives >> solution for chords, not to play a B.C., and also dedicated to the >> harpsichord (did Delair even play the theorbo?). The others >> (Grenerin, >> Fleury,...) work with re-entrant tuning, even if the solutions >> could >> be >> strange for us (but what about the guitar?). >> I think the discontinuity you quote about the lines, with wide >> laps, >> is >> inherent to the theorbo. In very clear solo theorbo pieces, with no >> doubt on tuning as Saizenay, you find those strange laps, even in >> de >> VisA(c)e. It is also very common in guitar pieces, (have a look to >> Monica Hall's site). And even changing the tuning doesn't solve >> the >> problem: you allways find those dicontinuities. This begins with >> Piccinini from place to place, but the campanella parts prove that >> his >> tuning was completely re-entrant. >> Le Mardi 28 janvier 2014 18h26, R. Mattes <[1][5]r...@mh-freiburg.de> >> a >> A(c)crit : >> On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 17:10:18 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote >> > >> > >> > I'm sorry you find Bob Spencer's paper so very poor. >> No need to be sorry, esp. since I don't find Spencer's paper "very >> poor" >> (where did I write >> that?). I only tied to say that it a) shows it's age b) seems to be >> an >> "overview"-type of >> publication and hence tends to over-generalize c) seems to often >> prove >> my >> points more than yours. >> > My point about the tablatures (rather than staff notation) is >> that >> > it is with these that we find an unequivocal indication of the >> > tuning required for a particular named instrument. >> And my point is that a lot of the tablatures I kow of and played >> are much less unequivocal in indicating the required tuning - just >> as an example there seem to be some rather equivocal places in the >> Pittoni on my music stand ... >> > I'm not aware of >> > any tablature sources which require, for example, a re-entrant >> > tuning for an archlute (or various cognates). Do you? >> No, but there are hardly any archlute tablatures from the Corelli >> time I know of. Please provide some - I'm really interested in this >> topic. >> And of course there is the case of "inverse" reentrantness (read: >> excessive use of octave stringing) in the recently mentioned >> Basso Continuo/Partimento manuscipt from Rome. >> Cheers, Ralf Mattes >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [1][2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> -- >> References >> 1. [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> -- >> References >> 1. mailto:[8]r...@mh-freiburg.de >> 2. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com >> 2. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de >> 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 4. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk >> 5. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de >> 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 8. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de >> 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
