"The biggest difference between the way we look at things and the way
a
16th or 17th century person would look at things is that we prefer
uniformity and they preferred diversity.": how do you know that?
Le Vendredi 31 janvier 2014 10h17, jean-michel Catherinot
<jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> a ecrit :
I think Diego Cantaluppi, in his thesis on theorbo (I suppose you can
read italian), gives very clear arguments on the subject. Once again,
it's a question of sound, not of label (to give names and labels is
not
the question). And indeed we can choose our own practice (you do it
very well), if it is the point you address. You turn all the
arguments
in a strange way i.e.: concerning the instrument, when I said "it's
not
such a reliable source", it answered your assertion that surviving
ones
are proofs (and now you turn it in "they have to be interpreted",
which is true but not what you said previously). Concerning the
supposed conflict in the Weiss's letter and arciliuto parts: where is
the conflict?? Concerning staff notation: there are extremely rare
examples of lute parts in staff notation (Fasch's concerto?, and not
sure it's for D min tuning) . Concerning vieil ton in France: I don't
know any lute or theorbo piece or whatever you call that instrument
in
staff notation at any time except Perrine: so no doubt on the tuning,
and no archiluth-type stringing (or whatever you call it) in France
as
a solo instrument. Nor I didn't find any piece of Weiss for lute in
mesural notation, neither Hagen, Durant...Wher did you find lute
parts
in mensural? It would be very interesting for my research. What I
noticed is that parts for arciliuto named explicitely are written in
mensural (and indeed BC for all the instruments).
Le Vendredi 31 janvier 2014 7h23, David Tayler
<[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net>
a ecrit :
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of
brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying
that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more
efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does
not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity
of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
"high-degree interchangeable".
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation,
there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
"absence"
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__________________________________________________________________
From: jean-michel Catherinot
<[1][2]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com>
To: R. Mattes <[2][3]r...@mh-freiburg.de>; lute
<[3][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Martyn
Hodgson <[4][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the "concerti" from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled "tuorbe" in "archiluth", he corrects a
mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our
subject,
but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence
of
the
use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be
used,
it's
very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note).
The
only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning
could
be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives
solution for chords, not to play a B.C., and also dedicated to
the
harpsichord (did Delair even play the theorbo?). The others
(Grenerin,
Fleury,...) work with re-entrant tuning, even if the solutions
could
be
strange for us (but what about the guitar?).
I think the discontinuity you quote about the lines, with wide
laps,
is
inherent to the theorbo. In very clear solo theorbo pieces, with
no
doubt on tuning as Saizenay, you find those strange laps, even in
de
VisA(c)e. It is also very common in guitar pieces, (have a look
to
Monica Hall's site). And even changing the tuning doesn't solve
the
problem: you allways find those dicontinuities. This begins with
Piccinini from place to place, but the campanella parts prove
that
his
tuning was completely re-entrant.
Le Mardi 28 janvier 2014 18h26, R. Mattes
<[1][5][6]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
a
A(c)crit :
On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 17:10:18 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
>
>
> I'm sorry you find Bob Spencer's paper so very poor.
No need to be sorry, esp. since I don't find Spencer's paper
"very
poor"
(where did I write
that?). I only tied to say that it a) shows it's age b) seems to
be
an
"overview"-type of
publication and hence tends to over-generalize c) seems to often
prove
my
points more than yours.
> My point about the tablatures (rather than staff notation) is
that
> it is with these that we find an unequivocal indication of the
> tuning required for a particular named instrument.
And my point is that a lot of the tablatures I kow of and played
are much less unequivocal in indicating the required tuning -
just
as an example there seem to be some rather equivocal places in
the
Pittoni on my music stand ...
> I'm not aware of
> any tablature sources which require, for example, a re-entrant
> tuning for an archlute (or various cognates). Do you?
No, but there are hardly any archlute tablatures from the Corelli
time I know of. Please provide some - I'm really interested in
this
topic.
And of course there is the case of "inverse" reentrantness (read:
excessive use of octave stringing) in the recently mentioned
Basso Continuo/Partimento manuscipt from Rome.
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
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