What is the etymology of the word "tiorba"?
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 12:03 AM
To: David Tayler; lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
As already pointed out on a number of occasions, the point about
tablature sources, rather than staff notation, is that they oblige a
particular tuning from the named instrument. Thus, for example, the
archlute tablature sources require top courses at the higher octave (ie
non re-entrant) - and vice versa for the theorbo tablatures. Your
stated belief that the archlute and theorbo were simply different names
for the same instrument('The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are
high-degree interchangeable.') is not therefore supported by any of the
tablature sources
MH
__________________________________________________________________
From: David Tayler <[email protected]>
To: lute <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 6:19
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
I don't see that staff notation is peculiar; it was a standard form
of
notation. It is elegant and descriptive, and the choice of brilliant
composers. There are even accounts in letters and diaries saying that
it is better than tablature, presumably because it is more efficient
in
showing the individual voices, or as part of the basso continuo
movement, or to parallel the viol, and so on. Many more reasons as
well, such as ornamentation.
Mersenne's quote: one can interpret all the square data that does not
fit into the round hole as errors, but because of the superfluity of
square data I think it makes more sense to consider the terms
"high-degree interchangeable".
Absence of viel ton: if music is written in mensural notation, there
is
no way to know if it is viel ton or not in many cases, so the
"absence"
is evidence only that ppl stopped using tab for some of the newer
styles of music. Certainly the tuning had some serious competition.
dt
__________________________________________________________________
From: jean-michel Catherinot <[1][email protected]>
To: R. Mattes <[2][email protected]>; lute
<[3][email protected]>; Martyn
Hodgson <[4][email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:14 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Yes: Zamboni in tablature., but indeed you know that!. I consider
that
most of the arciliuto music is written in staff notation, may be
this
is a particularity of the instrument, and there is no doubt that
tuning
is not re-entrant (just have a look to Hasse's Cleofide, for
arciliuto
and compare with obligato parts for tiorba in Conti's Davide:
ambitus
and tessiture). . In staff notation, you mat consult, as I said,
obligato parts in Hasse's and Haendel's operas (and many others
it
seems, I'm trying to list them), and the "concerti" from Harrach
collection. It is not impossible that Zamboni was the composer of
the
solo sonata for arciliuto and the two aconcertinos' for arciliuto
with
two violins and organ (all anonymous and in staff notation) from
the
Harrach library formerly owned by Robert Spencer and now at the
Royal
Academy of Music, London; another similar anonymous concerto for
arciliuto is among the newly-discovered items of chamber music at
Rohrau.
Concerning Mersenne, it is quite clear in french that while
renaming
the picture untitled "tuorbe" in "archiluth", he corrects a mistake
he
has previously done (and he says explicitly that): and he gives
quite
clearly the tuning for thA(c)orbe (re-entrant, in A) and the two
tunings for archiluth in G and A.
Concerning the use of archiluth in France (this is not our subject,
but...): at first 2 points, I don't know any tablature evidence of
the
use of vieil ton after ca1640. If this type of lute would be used,
it's
very strange that there is no written music for it (not a note).
The
only strange book of Delair gives the impression that the tuning
could
be not re-entrant: but it's a quite basic book, which only gives
solution for chords, not to play a B.C., and also dedicated to the
harpsichord (did Delair even play the theorbo?). The others
(Grenerin,
Fleury,...) work with re-entrant tuning, even if the solutions
could
be
strange for us (but what about the guitar?).
I think the discontinuity you quote about the lines, with wide
laps,
is
inherent to the theorbo. In very clear solo theorbo pieces, with no
doubt on tuning as Saizenay, you find those strange laps, even in
de
VisA(c)e. It is also very common in guitar pieces, (have a look to
Monica Hall's site). And even changing the tuning doesn't solve
the
problem: you allways find those dicontinuities. This begins with
Piccinini from place to place, but the campanella parts prove that
his
tuning was completely re-entrant.
Le Mardi 28 janvier 2014 18h26, R. Mattes <[1][5][email protected]>
a
A(c)crit :
On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 17:10:18 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
>
>
> I'm sorry you find Bob Spencer's paper so very poor.
No need to be sorry, esp. since I don't find Spencer's paper "very
poor"
(where did I write
that?). I only tied to say that it a) shows it's age b) seems to be
an
"overview"-type of
publication and hence tends to over-generalize c) seems to often
prove
my
points more than yours.
> My point about the tablatures (rather than staff notation) is
that
> it is with these that we find an unequivocal indication of the
> tuning required for a particular named instrument.
And my point is that a lot of the tablatures I kow of and played
are much less unequivocal in indicating the required tuning - just
as an example there seem to be some rather equivocal places in the
Pittoni on my music stand ...
> I'm not aware of
> any tablature sources which require, for example, a re-entrant
> tuning for an archlute (or various cognates). Do you?
No, but there are hardly any archlute tablatures from the Corelli
time I know of. Please provide some - I'm really interested in this
topic.
And of course there is the case of "inverse" reentrantness (read:
excessive use of octave stringing) in the recently mentioned
Basso Continuo/Partimento manuscipt from Rome.
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
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