You write 'People like the archlute-theorbo duality. It isn't
historical'
Many historical sources describe the differences between the two
instruments (Bob Spencer's article still represents a good summary -
see link I gave earlier) and, of course, the tablature sources clearly
show the differences in tuning of the top courses.
MH
__________________________________________________________________
From: David Tayler <[email protected]>
To: lute <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 31 January 2014, 5:54
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
__________________________________________________________________
Well, if the surviving instruments are, as you say, not reliable,
they
are still the most reliable of the information we have. However, the
surviving instruments are IMHO rare, valuable, informative, vivid and
concise. Like any document or postcard from the past, they need to be
interpreted.
As for labels, I see that as the root of the problem, and essentially
a
reinterpretation of the based based on the ever changing tastes ofthe
present.
People like the archlute-theorbo duality. It isn't historical, but
people like it. The terms are partially historical, of course, they
just create an artificial duality. I don't like it, but that's just
because it think it filters out a lot of possibilities.
I think one could come up with a better label system, but that isn't
going to happen because the lute business is a market driven
business,
it is not an academic enterprise.
In the case of Weiss, you have conflicting information, Weiss's
letter,
and the surviving parts. Take away the labels, and the problem goes
away. Mostly.
dt
From: jean-michel Catherinot <[1][email protected]>
To: David Tayler <[2][email protected]>; lute
<[3][email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
If you read the previous messages, and specially, the one from Arthur
Ness, you may notice that some of the arciliuto obligato parts in
Dresden opera would be by Weiss's own hand. So it seems that
arciliuto
was eventually practiced by him, at least on stage: it looks that
arciliuto was not an ennemy for him! Concerning the instruments,
luthiers are more competent: but I've seen some in Europe (it was
easy
to have in your hands the instruments of the Paris conservatoire at
the
time, and I helped to draw the plans of some of them, or in Bruxelles
and Nueremberg), and not many in their initial shape (many
transformed
in guitar, shortened, with guitar bridge, ...). So surviving
instruments are not such a reliable source....Anyway, the main
information in this letter is that at least 3 types of instruments
exist, and different from each others, at Weiss' time: lute,
arciliuto
and theorbo. And it is not a question of label, it's a question of
tuning and quantity of noise it produces!
Le Mardi 28 janvier 2014 2h41, David Tayler
<[4][email protected]> a
ecrit :
__________________________________________________________________
This is a very interesting quote because it falls in between the
classical divisions of prescriptive and descriptive. So it is sort
of
descriptive in that Weiss is setting up a "straw lute" argument by
describing and then downgrading the "other" (non-Weiss)
instruments,
and then it is both self-descriptive and prescriptive in that he
goes
on to describe the "superior" instrument, which of course he would
be
compelled by the rules of rhetoric to claim to have partially
invented.
You could argue based on this quote that no one played the
gallichon,
but of course that won't fly nowadays.
In analyzing the quote, there is no way to know if it is true or
not,
but there is certainly no reason to doubt that Weiss had all or
some
custom instruments. However, there is also no reason to doubt that
any
of his competitors would not have had custom instruments, which
would
render his entire argument moot. Certainly it was standard
procedure
for someone to claim that their method was the "right" one and
everyone
else had it wrong, and musicologists rightly take such statements
in
that context. So for example, most German composers claim that they
brought French music to Germany. And therefore those statements are
all
pretty much suspect.
But--it certainly helps make the case that "professionals" had
"custom"
instruments and custom tunings, which would mean that new labels
must
be invented and applied (the "Weiss Theorbo", etc.) or one could
stay
away from the labels....
d
In a letter to Johann Mattheson written in 1723 Weiss describes the
lutes he used:
"a|.I am of the opinion that after the keyboard there is no more
perfect instrument than this one (the lute) especially for
Galanterie. The theorbo and Arciliuto, which are quite different
even from each other, cannot be used at all in Galanterie
piecesa|I
have adapted one of my instruments for accompaniment in the
orchestra and in church. It has the same size, length, power and
resonance of the veritable theorbo and has the same effect, only
that the tuning is different. This instrument I use on these
occasions. But in chamber music, I assure you that a cantata a
voce
sola, next to the harpsichord, accompanied by the lute has a much
better effect than with the Arciliuto or even theorbo, since
these
two latter instruments are ordinarily played with the nails and
produce in close proximity a coarse, harsh sound."
Le Samedi 25 janvier 2014 10h45, Martyn Hodgson
<[1][5][email protected]> a A(c)crit :
You write that
'The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are high-degree
interchangeable.'
What's your evidence for this? The two instruments were tuned
in
different ways: theorboes having re-entrant tuning - single
re-entrant
if small enough or double reentrant if large; whereas archlutes
retained the highest course at the upper octave.
Or are you suggesting the occasional possibility that a writer
may
have
used the word archlute in a generic sense: implying any lute
instrument
with extended basses?
MH
__________________________________________________________________
From: David Tayler <[1][2][6][email protected]>
To: lute <[2][3][7][email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 24 January 2014, 19:14
Subject: [LUTE] Re: archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
The terms "arciliuto" and "tiorba" are high-degree
interchangeable.
That is, they are not low or medium, and they are also not
completely
interchangeable (since they are sometimes used together). One
could
argue that they are "medium" instead of "high", but it would be
difficult to show this based on the sources.
The correlation is the inverse of the degree, so in other words
it
is
possible that the difference in terms may "mean" something, but
of
a
low order of probability.
Because of the degree order, it isn't really possible to assign
uses
in
a general way, only in specific cases. For every case, there
will
be
an
exception. There are certainly some interesting specific cases.
So
either "what we call" the theorbo or the archlute could be used
to
play
just the single notes of a bass part, or chords, or continuo,
or
any
of
a million shades in between, as well as the instruments of the
lute
family that we do not normally include in our modern
designation
of
archlute and theorbo--that is, instruments without modern
labels.
However, in these specific cases, like obbligato parts, there
is
no
reason to believe that there was one type of archlute, so then
you
get
into label variations. The variations are also the inverse of
correlation--that is, to make a conclusion about how an
instrument
was
used, you would have to reconcile the variants.
There are a few pieces where you can make a correlation based
on
range,
but these would have to be fully written out obbligato parts,
not
bass
parts, and even these could well be played on other
instruments.
If you look at "list label-sets", like encyclopedias or books
of
measurements, each instrument is assigned a label; however,
there
is
no
other way to make a list, so there is no reason to believe that
the
label applied reflected common practice--which explains why the
different label-lists use different labels. You can't have a
list
composed of duplicates. This explains why the lists exist, and
also
explains why the lists are different.
20th and 21st century mindsets require a label for every
instrument;
however, the renaissance and baroque mindsets required a small
number
of labels for a large number of instruments.
By applying the small number of labels categorically, the
effect
is
simply to exclude the larger number of instruments from the
general
discussion. For example the chitarrone has disappeared, because
its
label was changed. Same is true for the viola.
To exist in the renaissance and baroque mindset, one must learn
to
think in the instrumentarium of a small number of terms and a
large
number of instruments. And within these terms, family has
priority,
So
"lute" or "flute" or "viola" first refers to a family of
instruments,
and terms like archlute have a familial tendency. Erase that,
and
the
interconnections disappear.
That's why we have fewer lute types today than in the past, as
well
as
fewer instrument types, with the exception of "sideways
marketing",
where an instrument is rediscovered or elevated for marketing
purposes
in a crowded subfield. Marketing definitely creates more
labels.
dt
__________________________________________________________________
From: Gary R. Boye <[1][3][4][8][email protected]>
To: jean-michel Catherinot
<[2][4][5][9][email protected]>;
Martyn
Hodgson <[3][5][6][10][email protected]>; R. Mattes
<[4][6][7][11][email protected]>; Ed
Durbrow <[5][7][8][12][email protected]>; LuteNet list
<[6][8][9][13][email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 6:19 AM
Subject: [LUTE] archlute/theorbo in Corelli's Op. 1
Dear Jean Michel,
Yes; interesting! We are only talking about Corelli's Op. 1
(Opp.
2-4
all call for archlute according to surviving editions--no
mention
of
theorbo there). I suppose this could either reflect common
practice
in
a city (Rome vs. Bologna/Venice) or publisher preference. Or
just
happenstance--what editions the publishers happened to copy.
The
raw
numbers:
There are 15 known editions of Op. 1, published between
1681-1735.
Archlute is called for in the first edition in Rome, as well as
2
other
Roman editions, 1 edition from Modena, and 3 editions from
London.
Theorbo ("tiorba") is called for in 7 editions, published
between
1682-1707. 5 of the editions are from Bologna (printed by G.
Monti
or
Silvani) and 2 are from Venice.
There is an additional Dutch edition by Roger that calls for
both
instruments in a catalog published later. This seems to support
Martyn's statement about different uses for the instruments in
this
music (violone vs. figured bass parts).
There are some that see a very limited role for the archlute in
general, mainly in Rome. But in addition to Corelli, the
archlute
was
called for in title pages of other's music outside of Rome more
often
than in Rome itself:
London 21
Rome 10
Amsterdam 10
Venice 6
Bologna 5
Modena 3
Antwerp 1
Florence 1
Lucca 1
[To search on my web page, go to:
[1][7][9][10][14]http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/co
ntin
uo.h
tml
and CRTL + F "archlute"]
This is not counting the solo music in tablature, just the
continuo
sources. For a list of the solo music for archlute, see:
[2][8]http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17/archlute.
htm
l
So I have some trouble limiting the archlute to Rome, but
perhaps
it
starts there . . .
Gary
On 1/24/2014 2:51 AM, jean-michel Catherinot wrote:
> Dear Gary ,
> Here are the links to the first editions, on IMSLP. Both
are
published
> in Roma, and mention arcileuto. The publications you cited
are
all
not
> in Roma. This fact is indeed interessant, isn'it?
>
[3][9][10][11][15]http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
>
[4][10][11][12][16]http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
> Le Jeudi 23 janvier 2014 17h45, Martyn Hodgson
> <[5][11][12][13][17][email protected]> a ecrit :
> Dear Gary,
> Indeed, and often overlooked (tho' I suspect not by you)
is
that
> theorbo is an alternative to the bass violin and not the
principal
> figured bass continuo instrument so a stratospheric
higher
register
> is
> not required.
> rgds
> Martyn
>
__________________________________________________________________
-- Dr. Gary R. Boye
Professor and Music Librarian
Appalachian State University
To get on or off this list see list information at
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--
References
1.
[13][14][15][19]http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/con
tinu
o.ht
ml
2.
[14][15][16][20]http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17
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ml
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5. mailto:[17][18][19][23][email protected]
6.
[18][19][20][24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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1. mailto:[20][21][25][email protected]
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73. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
74. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.html
75. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17/archlute.ht
76. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
77. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
78. mailto:[email protected]
79. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
80. mailto:[email protected]
81. mailto:[email protected]
82. mailto:[email protected]
83. mailto:[email protected]
84. mailto:[email protected]
85. mailto:[email protected]
86. mailto:[email protected]
87. mailto:[email protected]
88. mailto:[email protected]
89. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.h
90. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
91. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
92. mailto:[email protected]
93. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
94. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.ht
95. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17/archlut
96. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
97. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
98. mailto:[email protected]
99. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
100. mailto:[email protected]
101. mailto:[email protected]
102. mailto:[email protected]
103. mailto:[email protected]
104. mailto:[email protected]
105. mailto:[email protected]
106. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.html
107. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17/archlute.ht
108. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
109. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
110. mailto:[email protected]
111. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
112. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.html
113. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17/archlute.ht
114. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
115. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
116. mailto:[email protected]
117. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
118. mailto:[email protected]
119. mailto:[email protected]
120. mailto:[email protected]
121. mailto:[email protected]
122. mailto:[email protected]
123. mailto:[email protected]
124. mailto:[email protected]
125. mailto:[email protected]
126. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.html
127. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
128. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
129. mailto:[email protected]
130. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
131. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.html
132. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17/archlute.ht
133. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
134. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
135. mailto:[email protected]
136. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
137. mailto:[email protected]
138. mailto:[email protected]
139. mailto:[email protected]
140. mailto:[email protected]
141. mailto:[email protected]
142. mailto:[email protected]
143. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.html
144. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17/archlute.htm
145. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
146. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
147. mailto:[email protected]
148. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
149. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/continuo.html
150. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C17/archlute.html
151. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280129
152. http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/280136
153. mailto:[email protected]
154. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
