We've discussed these before as well, but for the benefit of Konstantin et alia . . . Here is a pair of beautiful pieces by Giuseppe Presbler clearly built as a matched set and housed by the US's Metropolitan Museum of art: [1]http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?&wh at=Musical+instruments|Bone&who=Giuseppe+Presbler&pg=1 I was privileged to be able to personally inspect and measure these pieces before they went on display for the public. The smaller piece conforms to typical expectations of the period's "mandolino." The Met catalogues the larger as "mandola" in line with recent literature like Morey or Tyler & Sparks. However, there is also a certain elegance in naming it "liuto" as a diminutive of the "arciliuto." As such, with a likely range of open strings of G to g' (in this case with one added bass), one octave below mandolino (although I would expect with a more lute-like positioning of the interval of a third), it makes a tempting alternative for Vivaldi's "leuto." Best, Eugene __________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson [[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:03 AM To: Braig, Eugene; lute list Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute I'm working on it! Martyn __________________________________________________________________ From: "Braig, Eugene" <[email protected]> To: lute list <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 17:21 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute .And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed out here in the past). However, Eric's article is published, is thus something I can cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original inquiry. It would be nice to see more published on this specific field. Best, Eugene From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[2][email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM To: Braig, Eugene; lute list Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute Dear Eugene, Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count Wrtby's origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in D (the E mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made any significant inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further, the writing of Vivaldi's 'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a rather higher pitched instrument in nominal G (or even A) which is, of course, simply the old lute tuning which seems to have persisted in Italy through much of the 18th century and is reflected in various sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments made at the time as well as in paintings of the period. There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos from Bob Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi and are clearly labelled for archlute. But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is unlikely (however tuned). regards Martyn ________________________________________ From: "Braig, Eugene" <[3][email protected]> To: lute list <[4][email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute Greetings Konstantin, This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least peripherally. Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of interest. I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in very widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian places. In large part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian nobleman named Wrtby. This led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the works to designate "leuto" were intended for a baritone voiced mandora from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.). On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of Instruments (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to designate "mandolino" to be intended for the five or six course mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the Bohemian "leuto" works to be for the same instrument played with the fingers. Personally, given the spread of violins and cello-driven basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the "leuto" works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range. I prefer to hear the "leuto" works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated, a common short hand carried on in guitar music to this day. I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers until into the classical era. That is how I play the instrument. Unfortunately, most performers who come to baroque incarnations of mandolin seem to approach it after having studied the modern mandolin. Almost universally, they play it with a plectrum (usually a quill, and there are some who argue a quill was never applied to any gut-strung mandolin types: that a sliver of cherry would be more appropriate). In spite of the likelihood of period performance practice, recordings of baroque mandolins played with the fingers are relatively rare. Best, Eugene -----Original Message----- From: [5][email protected] [mailto:[6][email protected]] On Behalf Of Konstantin Shchenikov Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 2:51 AM To: lute list Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi solo lute Dear friends! I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for Vivaldi concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an experience with it? Could you point me to some research? I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to) baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use fingers or have to play with plectrum? And the last, do you know who can built such a thing? And any other information is very appreciated! Greetings from St.Petersburg, Konstantin -- To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?&what=Musical+instruments|Bone&who=Giuseppe+Presbler&pg=1 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
