Yes indeed Eugene,
This is one of the very instruments I had in mind when earlier
referring to extant Italian instruments newly made in the 18th century.
As you suggest, the identification of it as a 'mandola' has no real
basis: it is a leuto (or liuto) and I have suggested it is precisely
the type of instrument for the Vivaldi (and other) unless additional
basses are required when an arciliuto is necessary. But note paintings
of the period often show just 7 or 8 course 'lutes' in Italy.
A particular feature of 18th century Italian 'lutes' which
distinguishes them from mandoras and the like is the length of the
neck: usually only allowing 7 or 8 fret spaces whereas the mandoras
generally allow 9 or 10. Roses are also often inset in extant Italian
lutes of the period - tho some late mandora/gallichon roses are too so
this isn't always reliable as a distinctive identifier.
Martyn
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Braig, Eugene" <[email protected]>
To: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>; lute list
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 5 June 2014, 13:04
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
We've discussed these before as well, but for the benefit of Konstantin
et alia . . .
Here is a pair of beautiful pieces by Giuseppe Presbler clearly built
as a matched set and housed by the US's Metropolitan Museum of art:
[1]http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?&wh
at=Musical+instruments|Bone&who=Giuseppe+Presbler&pg=1
I was privileged to be able to personally inspect and measure these
pieces before they went on display for the public. The smaller piece
conforms to typical expectations of the period's "mandolino." The Met
catalogues the larger as "mandola" in line with recent literature like
Morey or Tyler & Sparks. However, there is also a certain elegance in
naming it "liuto" as a diminutive of the "arciliuto." As such, with a
likely range of open strings of G to g' (in this case with one added
bass), one octave below mandolino (although I would expect with a more
lute-like positioning of the interval of a third), it makes a tempting
alternative for Vivaldi's "leuto."
Best,
Eugene
__________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson [[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:03 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
I'm working on it!
Martyn
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Braig, Eugene" <[email protected]>
To: lute list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 17:21
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
.And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed
out here in the past). However, Eric's article is published, is thus
something I can cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original
inquiry. It would be nice to see more published on this specific
field.
Best,
Eugene
From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[2][email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
Dear Eugene,
Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count
Wrtby's origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in
D (the E mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made
any significant inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further,
the writing of Vivaldi's 'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a
rather higher pitched instrument in nominal G (or even A) which is, of
course, simply the old lute tuning which seems to have persisted in
Italy through much of the 18th century and is reflected in various
sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments made at the
time as well as in paintings of the period.
There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos
from Bob Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi
and are clearly labelled for archlute.
But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is
unlikely (however tuned).
regards
Martyn
________________________________________
From: "Braig, Eugene" <[3][email protected]>
To: lute list <[4][email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
Greetings Konstantin,
This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least
peripherally. Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of
interest.
I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in
very widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian
places. In large part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian
nobleman named Wrtby. This led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the
works to designate "leuto" were intended for a baritone voiced mandora
from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society
of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).
On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of
Instruments (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to
designate "mandolino" to be intended for the five or six course
mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the
Bohemian "leuto" works to be for the same instrument played with the
fingers. Personally, given the spread of violins and cello-driven
basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the "leuto"
works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range. I prefer to
hear the "leuto" works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated,
a common short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.
I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque
mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers
until into the classical era. That is how I play the instrument.
Unfortunately, most performers who come to baroque incarnations of
mandolin seem to approach it after having studied the modern mandolin.
Almost universally, they play it with a plectrum (usually a quill, and
there are some who argue a quill was never applied to any gut-strung
mandolin types: that a sliver of cherry would be more appropriate). In
spite of the likelihood of period performance practice, recordings of
baroque mandolins played with the fingers are relatively rare.
Best,
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: [5][email protected]
[mailto:[6][email protected]] On Behalf Of Konstantin
Shchenikov
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 2:51 AM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi solo lute
Dear friends!
I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for
Vivaldi
concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
experience with it?
Could you point me to some research?
I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use
fingers
or have to play with plectrum?
And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
And any other information is very appreciated!
Greetings from St.Petersburg,
Konstantin
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References
1.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?&what=Musical+instruments|Bone&who=Giuseppe+Presbler&pg=1
2. mailto:[email protected]
3. mailto:[email protected]
4. mailto:[email protected]
5. mailto:[email protected]
6. mailto:[email protected]
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
