Very interesting discussion!
I have always wondered what would be the best fret setup.
Looking at what Lauri Niskanen's calculator offered, I finally chose
Gerle's setup because I thought this is probably developed out of
practice and would cover most of 16th century music.
I also tried Dowland's lute, but the spacing felt somewhat uncomfortable
for me.
Comparing them with pure setup systems, I found that some frets were off
by a little to either 1/6 meantone or other "pure" systems like
pythagorean or equal temperament - probably compromising.
Since what you find acceptable is probably a personal taste anyway (if
playing alone at least) I would be interested what you prefer.
Our understanding is not universal (though the natural laws are)...
In Gamelan music, metal instruments age and detune, and that's how they
keep them. It's an individual color that the instrument adds to the
music - a totally foreign concept to us.
Am 08.03.2018 um 15:31 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
number of times before - just search the archives. For example this
some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
* [1]Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>
*
* 09/01/11 at 2:50 PM
To[2]Lute Net
Dear Andrew,
The problem with a lot of writing about unequal temperament on the
lute
is that it's either written by many who base their conclusions almost
entirely on keyboard practice (where, of course, with individual keys
one can indeed make a deliberate choice between a chromatic or
diatonic
semitone in all octaves) or those who have heard that 'meantone'
gives
purer thirds and therefore by asserting this they are somehow
'better'
than those inclined to other views.
Most such writers seem blissfully unaware of the fundemental problems
that many of the Old Ones themselves squarely faced up to: that by
having a fret across the fingerboard it is not possible to set up a
lute in such a meantone (ie on some courses the fret will have to
stop
a chromatic note; on another a diatonic one). In a few early pieces
it
may be possible to set up a suitable meantone (say 1/6 comma, which
gives both thirds and fifths roughly the same distance from pure) but
even here one runs into problems as I pointed out in my original
reviews (in FoMRHI Quarterly) of Lindley's still unsurpassed book: eg
Luis Milan does in fact use the first fret for chromatic notes on the
4th course.
My own view is that in practice a modest degree of tempering can
often
end up with more harmonious results for many pieces - in particular
by
moving the second fret a bit towards the nut and the third a bit
towards the neck (both around an 1/8th commas worth) and then
tempering
the open strings accordingly by following the old unison/octave
tuning
checks.
However I'm often outfaced by many late 16th century Italian sources
which, for example, freely use the first fret on the first course for
a
chromatic or a diatonic note! - implying either they had no sense of
tuning or something pretty close to equal temperament was routinely
employed (as Lindley concludes).
Of course there is the red herring that one can use 'tastini' (ie
small
additional frets placed against certain fret/courses to allow a
choice
of diatonic or chromatic). Even allowing that it's always technically
possible to employ these and that the buzzing on the paired fret is
somehow overcome, there is the problem that the sole source which
mentions these (Vincenzo Galilei - a celebrated thoerist as well as
practicing lutenist - in 'Fromino Dialogo' 1568,1584) speaks of the
practice in a most disparaging manner: "....Now I come to the
matter
of 'tastini' which lately some people seek to introduce to remove
some
of the sharpness from the thirds and major tenths (as they try to
persuade those who are more foolish than they)..... but those using
'tastini' do not know much about thoery". Unsurprisingly, no other
contemporary lutenists seem to make any reference to such
affectations.
David van Ooijen has probably made the best stab at simple
instructions
on how to set up a lute for various meantone temperaments (see his
site) but even he is obliged to fudge the outcome by assuming
particular diatonic or chromatic settings for certain frets which
wont
work in many pieces/keys (eg for a nominal G lute the third fret 4th
course is given in its G# position whereas its much commoner use is
at
Ab, etc....). You'll have to analyse Kapsberger's diatonic/chromatic
usage at each fret position to be able to estimate what temperament
he
employed - when I did it I found equal temparament was generally
indicated..........
MH
PS This topic generally has been the subject of repeated threads on
this list - Andrew, you may care to trawl the substantial archives.
__________________________________________________________________
From: Ron Andrico <[email protected]>
To: Martin Shepherd <[email protected]>; Lute List
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 12:42
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
And I will add that thirds are not and never were meant to be pure.
Octaves, fifths, and fourths are pure and thirds are dissonant. This
is fundamental to understanding the character of early music, and
reinforced as pertains to fretting the lute by Vincenzo Galilei. I
agree with Galilei, who was one smart fella, and all this mucking
about
with temperament is really keyboard-centric.
RA
__________________________________________________________________
From: [3][email protected] <[4][email protected]> on
behalf
of Martin Shepherd <[5][email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 12:18 PM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone
temperaments. The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament,
just
2
cents narrow, but in meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.
I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning
check, but only because I know by ear how flat they should sound. I
often play (as arpeggios) a sequence:
c1c2a3, a1a2c4, d2d3a4, etc.
To check that all the fifths are equally narrow. (and the octaves are
perfect).
Martin
On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:
> I should have added--it seems to work quite well. I check
perfect
> fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.
The
ear
> tuning has, to be sure, the final say. But for starters, when
things
> get a bit off, the f transposition has been nice for getting the
open
> strings in place. When my strings are behaving, the tuning stays
pretty
> good, so I don't do this every time I practice.
>
> Thanks for your input!
> Leonard
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Daillie <[6][email protected]>
> To: Leonard Williams <[7][email protected]>; Lute List
> <[8][email protected]>
> Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 5:31 am
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] meantone tuning tech
> Hi Leonard,
> This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to
me.
Maybe
> it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are
doing
> when
> checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of
your
> lute).
> With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure,
beat-less
major
> thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal
temperament
> thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the
purity of
> major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute
(far
> less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of
a
> harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the
frets
> based on calculations for your string length. You can use a
calculator
> such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will
give
you
> the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you
need
to do
> is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets
> accordingly. Here's the link:
> [1][9]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
> Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra
frets
> (tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such
as the
> first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone
> distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower
than
Eb
> flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on
the lute
> and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets
according to
> the piece you are playing. Once your frets are set, I would
suggest
> tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic tuner and then
tuning the
> other courses by ear from that by using octaves. If you do not
feel
> comfortable tuning by ear then use the setting on your tuner to
get 1/4
> comma mean-tone with an Eb as you will be playing music in flat
keys.
> The final adjustments really do need to be made by ear, however
good
> your tuner and you can check the major thirds of the piece you
are
> playing.
> Hope this helps.
> Best,
> Matthew
> can use a pr
> On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:
> > Here's a tuning method I've been experimenting with, and I'm
> wondering about others' related experiences. My 8 course is
nominally
> in g (i.e., g treble), 1/4 comma meantone. But - since most of
the
> music I play is in flat keys, I set my Peterson tuner for an
instrument
> in F instead of C. Thus when I tune the g, the readout is d,
etc.
I've
> also found that using a chord consisting of fret d on 3rd, e on
4th,
> and f on fifth is helpful in refining the tuning and those
frets.
> > Any similar experiences?
> >
> > Best to all,
> > Leonard Williams
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [1][10]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
[2][og_fret470.jpg]
[3]Fret Calculator | Niskanen Lutes
www.niskanenlutes.com
Fret Calculator Fret placement calculator. You can enter your string
length in any unit of measurement and the results will be displayed
in
that unit.
>
>
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References
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