And soberly put. RT ==== http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> On Jan 3, 2020, at 12:58 PM, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. <[email protected]> wrote: > > Good points, Ron. > > --Sarge > >> On 1/3/2020 06:28, Ron Andrico wrote: >> Dear Antonio: >> >> I find this discussion intriguing. While Milan was certainly a capable >> (if idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his >> published music may have at least been inspired by the work of others. >> In fact, Milan did borrow heavily from Baldassare Castiglione’s Il >> Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali (undated) >> that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and >> available as early as Castiglione's book. >> >> In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music >> was taught the rules of composing. And while today we tend to measure >> a composer by the looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist, >> there was a great deal of borrowing as a matter of course in the 16th >> century. An anthologizer like Milan could very well have put his name >> on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that circulated as an >> unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique setting >> that showed off his dexterity with the many running quavers, an aspect >> we enjoy today. In the 16th century either form would have been >> attributed solely to Milan because it was in his published book. >> >> I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his >> cosmopolitan lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and >> put his stamp on it. >> RA >> __________________________________________________________________ >> >> From: [email protected] >> <[email protected]> on behalf of Antonio Corona >> <[email protected]> >> Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM >> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone? >> >> Dear Dmitry >> I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation >> implies a number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion, >> untenable. Milan showed himself a competent composer in his other >> songs: I see no reason to brush this fact aside and look elsewhere. >> Best wishes >> Antonio >> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> Dear Antonio, >> I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's >> madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly >> too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but >> perhaps >> as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that >> they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that >> he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own. >> Dmitry >> On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: >> > Dear Dmitry >> > >> > You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music >> poetry by Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music. >> > >> > Cheers >> > Antonio >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :) >> > >> > On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: >> >> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna >> per >> >> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan? >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dmitry >> >> >> >> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: >> >> >> >>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something >> without >> >>> basis. >> >>> >> >>> About authorship: >> >>> >> >>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] >> >>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he >> >>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia >> >>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su >> >>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me >> >>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el >> mio/pues >> >>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual >> [i.e. >> >>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran >> >>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno >> querria >> >>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion. >> >>> >> >>> About the meaning of "componer": >> >>> >> >>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en >> >>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y >> >>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro >> primeras >> >>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada >> >>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es >> mia. >> >>> >> >>> About the villancicos: >> >>> >> >>> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar >> y >> >>> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en >> castellano >> >>> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian >> >>> villancicos]. >> >>> >> >>> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano >> y >> >>> en portugues /y en ytaliano. >> >>> >> >>> Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y >> >>> portugues y sonetos en ytaliano. >> >>> >> >>> Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue >> segun >> >>> esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read El cortesano >> >>> (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity >> for >> >>> singing and playing his own works and not those of somebody else, >> as >> >>> well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan >> >>> Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, >> >>> assi temporales como espirituales (1562). >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann >> >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> :) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote: >> >>>> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán >> >>>> >> >>>> Cheers >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von >> Neumann >> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Are you sure? >> >>>> >> >>>> Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos? >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Happy New Year, >> >>>> >> >>>> T* >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote: >> >>>>> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Happy New Year to all, >> >>>>> Antonio >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. >> >>>>> Gerbode, M.D. <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 >> to 37 >> >>>>> [1]here. >> >>>>> --Sarge >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2][email protected]) >> >>>>> 11132 Dell Ave >> >>>>> Forestville, CA 95436-9491 >> >>>>> Home phone: 707-820-1759 >> >>>>> Website: [3]http://www.gerbode.net >> >>>>> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> >> >>>>> References >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 1. >> [1]http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/ >> >>>>> 2. [2]mailto:[email protected] >> >>>>> 3. [3]http://www.gerbode.net/ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >> >>>>> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/ >> 2. mailto:[email protected] >> 3. http://www.gerbode.net/ >> 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > -- > Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([email protected]) > 11132 Dell Ave > Forestville, CA 95436-9491 > Home phone: 707-820-1759 > Website: http://www.gerbode.net > "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." > >
