Dear Ron, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you too. I cannot consider Milán as an anthologizer: I am not prepared take the leap of faith it requires to consider him so. When Milán borrowed a tune he acknowledged it: "Esta pauana que se sigue la sonada della se hizo en Ytalia y canta con ella vna letra que dize qua la bella franceschina la compostura que va sobrella es mia y es del otauo tono".
It is true that the author of Maddona per voi ardo is unknown, but we might safely place him it in the same italianate poetic tendency that the early vihuelists (Milán and Mudarra) favoured. Both vihuelists set to music texts by Petrarch and Sannazaro, endecasillabic poetry -as Madoona per voi ardo was too- that was coming into fashion in Spain at the time (authors such as Garcilaso or Boscan took it up later in Spanish). I would find it easier to believe that the text might have enjoyed some circulation than to find any link between Milán and Verdelot (if there is one please tell me) other than the fact that they both used the same text. Furthermore, the Intavolatura de li madrigali was published in Venice, with Scotto's printer mark, in 1536, that is, one year after the work on publishing El Maestro had begun; Il primo libro de Madrigali, for four voices was published in 1537, again by Scotto (the "Nouamente stampato" in the Cantus title-page dos not necessarily mean "pr! inted again" - it can also be read as "newly printed"). Both books contain, of course, the Maddona per voi ardo. On the other hand, if we are to credit Milán's words, he never received a formal instruction in music: "siempre he sido tan inclinado a la musica/que puedo afirmar y dezir: que nunca tuue otro maestro sino a ella misma". This might be an exageration, but sometimes his counterpoint lends some credence to this statement. We may speculate about the practice of borrowing but to me it is clear that when Milán used material upon which to compose he stated so plainly. There is however a point that is not subject to doubt: the influence (or rather the lack of it) of Castiglione upon Milán's Cortesano. This influence is limited to the fact that when he watched some ladies hold the book, he desired to be held as well in those lovely hands: "Hablandome con ciertas damas de Valencia: que tenian entre manos el Cortesano del conde Balthasar Castillon: Dixeron que me parescia del. Yo dixe. Mas querria ser vos conde, que no don Luys Milan: por estar en essas manos, donde yo querria estar. Respondieron las damas. Pues hazed vos vn otro: para que allegueys a veros en las manos que tanto os han dado de mano." Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, wa! s published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. I cannot help but remembering Diana Poulton's words about El Cortesano: "It is often stated that it is an imitation of Castiglione's work ... by those who have not read it". Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 3 January 2020, 08:28:22 GMT-6, Ron Andrico <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Antonio: I find this discussion intriguing. While Milan was certainly a capable (if idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his published music may have at least been inspired by the work of others. In fact, Milan did borrow heavily from Baldassare Castiglione’s Il Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali (undated) that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and available as early as Castiglione's book. In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music was taught the rules of composing. And while today we tend to measure a composer by the looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist, there was a great deal of borrowing as a matter of course in the 16th century. An anthologizer like Milan could very well have put his name on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that circulated as an unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique setting that showed off his dexterity with the many running quavers, an aspect we enjoy today. In the 16th century either form would have been attributed solely to Milan because it was in his published book. I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his cosmopolitan lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and put his stamp on it. RA From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Antonio Corona <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone? Dear Dmitry I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation implies a number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion, untenable. Milan showed himself a competent composer in his other songs: I see no reason to brush this fact aside and look elsewhere. Best wishes Antonio On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Antonio, I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but perhaps as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own. Dmitry On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > Dear Dmitry > > You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by > Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music. > > Cheers > Antonio > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev ><[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :) > > On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: >> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per >> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan? >> >> Cheers, >> Dmitry >> >> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: >> >>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something without >>> basis. >>> >>> About authorship: >>> >>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] >>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he >>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia >>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su >>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me >>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues >>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. >>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran >>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria >>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion. >>> >>> About the meaning of "componer": >>> >>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en >>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y >>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras >>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada >>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia. >>> >>> About the villancicos: >>> >>> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y >>> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano >>> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian >>> villancicos]. >>> >>> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y >>> en portugues /y en ytaliano. >>> >>> Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y >>> portugues y sonetos en ytaliano. >>> >>> Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun >>> esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta. >>> >>> >>> Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read El cortesano >>> (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for >>> singing and playing his own works and not those of somebody else, as >>> well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan >>> Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, >>> assi temporales como espirituales (1562). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption? >>> >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote: >>>> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Are you sure? >>>> >>>> Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos? >>>> >>>> >>>> Happy New Year, >>>> >>>> T* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote: >>>>> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself. >>>>> >>>>> Happy New Year to all, >>>>> Antonio >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. >>>>> Gerbode, M.D. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37 >>>>> [1]here. >>>>> --Sarge >>>>> -- >>>>> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2][email protected]) >>>>> 11132 Dell Ave >>>>> Forestville, CA 95436-9491 >>>>> Home phone: 707-820-1759 >>>>> Website: [3]http://www.gerbode.net >>>>> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> References >>>>> >>>>> 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/ >>>>> 2. mailto:[email protected] >>>>> 3. http://www.gerbode.net/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>> >>>>> >> >
