Hmm... a Romanesca is not a Passamezzo model though.
If you consider Passamezzo as a blanket term for cyclic variation
models, this would apply to many other pieces.
That's an interesting discussion though!
On 23.03.20 20:35, Sean Smith wrote:
Tristan,
If you're looking for an early passemezo of Spanish character, there is
a Romanesca in Dalza, f46.
Sean
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:50 AM Tristan von Neumann
<[1][email protected]> wrote:
Sorry, I trusted the number Sarge put on his edition.
So it's not from 1520 after all? No problem. That's even more
interesting, because this means that Hans Judenkünig's Spanish
Dance in
his 1523 book is earlier than any of the actual Spanish sources.
It's similar to the dance in Simancas.
Like Hans Newsidler had the earliest Passamezzo though it's an
Italian
dance...
On 23.03.20 19:35, Antonio Corona wrote:
We should be careful not to put forward our thoughts as facts.
Try
Narváez (1538), it even predates the French guitar versions, not
to
mention the later English lute versions (and it is not a
recommendation).
Cheers
Antonio
On Monday, 23 March 2020, 04:46:37 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
[1]<[2][email protected]> wrote:
I thought this was the oldest known vihuela tablature?
Feel free to recommend an earlier version!
I'm interested.
On 23.03.20 11:26, Antonio Corona wrote:
> � � How can you be so certain that this is the earliest
example of
the
> � � Conde Claros?
> � � Best regards to everybody,
> � � Antonio
>
> � � On Sunday, 22 March 2020, 14:25:51 GMT-6, Tristan von
Neumann
> � � <[2][3][email protected]> wrote:
> � � For some Condes Claros beginner fun, check out this
duet (you can
> � � record
> � � the second part and play to it).
> � � It's also the earliest example.
> � �
[1][3][4]http://gerbode.net/sources/E-SIM_simancas_archivo_general/l
eg_394
_si
> � �
mancas_vihuela_ms_1520/pdf/3_contrapunto_sobre_conde_claros.pdf
> � � The best beginner's book (I learned to play with it) is
certainly
the
> � � one by Hans Newsidler:
> � �
[2][4][5]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_1/pdf/
> � �
[3][5][6]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_2/pdf/
> � � The great thing is that Newsidler carefully progresses,
introducing
> � � just
> � � one new aspect per piece.
> � � Also the first couple of pieces have only two voices,
the third
can
> � � optionally be sung (it's popular tunes everyone knew
back then).
> � � Other books like Robinson's School of Music seem too
difficult
and
> � � unorganized for the beginner.
> � � Though Robinson is nice and the introduction helpful,
it fails to
> � � create
> � � a learning curve.
> � � On 22.03.20 20:44, Sean Smith wrote:
> � � > � � You're right. It is long and involved
and
certainly has its
> � � difficult
> � � > � � bits.
> � � > � � It might be a project for someone with
time
on their hands
to
> � � select
> � � > � � bits for easier sections to play. It
has its
parallels with
Conde
> � � > � � Claros which went through many
personal edits
at the time
so it
> � � would
> � � > � � hardly be anachronistic to edit it to
one's
specs. I would
like to
> � � > � � think that there's something in there
for
everybody.
> � � > � � Sean
> � � >
> � � > � � On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 3:04 AM Jurgen
Frenz
> � � > � �
<[1][4][6][7][email protected]> wrote:
> � � >
> � � > � � � if it is for easy pieces to
play or
re-work basic
technique I
> � � found
> � � > � � � Lynda Says quarterly advice
quite useful
and the higher
numbers
> � � are
> � � > � � � not so easy either:
> � � > � � �
[2][5][7][8]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
> � � > � � � Further there's a list of
tentative
"grades" of
difficulty of
> � � lute
> � � > � � � pieces, not everybody feels the
same as
we all have
different
> � � > � � � difficulties but nice to go
through
> � � > � � �
[3][6][8][9]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
> � � > � � � Best wishes
> � � > � � � JÃÆÃâ ÃÆ Ã ï¿½rgen
> � � > � � � ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã
�ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã
�ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ Original
Message ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ
à �ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½
> � � > � � � On Sunday, March 22, 2020 5:23
AM, Sean
Smith
> � � > � � �
<[4][7][9][10][email protected]> wrote:
> � � > � � � > Both faves and we're lucky to
have
them.
> � � > � � � > I know you like finding
hidden things,
Tristan. Go to
the
> � � really
> � � > � � � long
> � � > � � � > [Dump] on f280 in the Marsh.
There's a
measure missing
between
> � � 114
> � � > � � � and
> � � > � � � > 115. Put in something you
like or
steal/adapt a measure
from
> � � > � � � elsewhere.
> � � > � � � > Now here's the fun part,
record it
carefully, then play
it
> � � against
> � � > � � � the
> � � > � � � > recording with a lag of 4
measures.
It's not perfect
but it
> � � works
> � � > � � � kind
> � � > � � � > of nicely. It will certainly
keep you
occupied for an
> � � afternoon or
> � � > � � � two.
> � � > � � � > ...and it's excellent
metronome
practice regardless.
> � � > � � � > Whether it was meant that way
is hard
to say and,
depending on
> � � > � � � whom you
> � � > � � � > talk to, even suggesting it
is probably
irresponsible
with a
> � � touch
> � � > � � � of
> � � > � � � > 'shame on you!'. There's
certainly no
indication. It
also
> � � starts a
> � � > � � � > little abruptly so you might
add a few
C and G
iterations on
> � � the
> � � > � � � front
> � � > � � � > end.
> � � > � � � > Sean
> � � > � � � >
> � � > � � � > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:13
PM Tristan
von Neumann
> � � > � � � >
<[1][5][8][10][11][email protected]> wrote:
> � � > � � � >
> � � > � � � > Many of you might have more
time on
their hands than
usual.
> � � > � � � > So here's a list of favorite
books and
manuscripts to
play.
> � � > � � � > * Marsh Lute Book. Fun for
weeks.
> � � > � � � >
> � � >
> � �
[2][6][9][11][12]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs
_librar
y/ms
> � � > � � � .z.
> � � > � � � > 3.2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
> � � > � � � > * Siena Ms. - it never fails
to
surprise
> � � > � � � >
> � � >
> � �
[3][7][10][12][13]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_
den_hag
e/MS
> � � _
> � � > � � � 28.
> � � > � � � > B.39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
> � � > � � � > * If you want to concentrate
on one
piece: this one
will keep
> � � you
> � � > � � � > busy
> � � > � � � > for a long time.
> � � > � � � >
> � � >
> � �
[4][8][11][13][14]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/0
1_fanta
sia_
> � � 0
> � � > � � � 1.p
> � � > � � � > df
> � � > � � � > * he learned from the best:
This book
by Paladin is
extremely
> � � > � � � > charming
> � � > � � � > and not too difficult
> � � > � � � >
[5][9][12][14][15]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pd
f/
> � � > � � � > * in times like these...
> � � > � � � >
> � � >
> � �
[6][10][13][15][16]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_
sirenas
_154
> � � 7
> � � > � � � /v2/
> � � > � � � >
pdf/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
> � � > � � � >
[7][11][17]gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
> � � > � � � > Let's hope the best for us
all.
> � � > � � � > Enjoy life.
> � � > � � � > To get on or off this list
see list
information at
> � � > � � � >
> � �
[8][12][14][16][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index
.html
> � � > � � � >
> � � > � � � >
> � � >
> � �
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> � � >
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> � � >
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> � �
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> � � >
> � �
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> � � >
> � �
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> � � >
> � �
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> � � >
> � �
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> � � >
> � �
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> � � >
> � �
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> � � >
> � �
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> � �
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> � �
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> � � >
> � �
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> � � > � � � ----------------------
> � � > � � � >
> � � > � � � > References
> � � > � � � >
> � � > � � � > 1. �
mailto:[13][15][17][19][email protected]
> � � > � � � > 2.
> � � >
> � �
[14][16][18][20]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_
library
/ms.
> � � z
> � � > � � � .3.2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
> � � > � � � > 3.
> � � >
> � �
[15][17][19][21]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_de
n_hage/
MS_2
> � � 8
> � � > � � � .B.39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
> � � > � � � > 4.
> � � >
> � �
[16][20][22]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fant
asia_01
.
> � � > � � � pdf
> � � > � � � > 5.
> � �
[17][18][21][23]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
> � � > � � � > 6.
> � � >
> � �
[18][19][22][24]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sir
enas_15
47/v
> � � 2
> � � > � � �
/pdf/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
> � � > � � � > 7.
> � � >
> � �
[19][20][23][25]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_
tune.pd
f
> � � > � � � > 8.
> � �
[20][21][24][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.ht
ml
> � � >
> � � > � � --
> � � >
> � � > References
> � � >
> � � > � � 1.
mailto:[22][25][27][email protected]
> � � > � � 2.
[23][26][28]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
> � � > � � 3.
[24][27][29]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
> � � > � � 4.
mailto:[25][28][30][email protected]
> � � > � � 5.
mailto:[26][29][31][email protected]
> � � > � � 6.
> � �
[27][30][32]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_libr
ary/ms.
z
> � � > � � 7.
> � �
[28][31][33]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_ha
ge/MS_2
8
> � � > � � 8.
> � �
[29][32][34]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fant
asia_01
.p
> � � > � � 9.
[30][33][35]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
> � � > � � 10.
> � �
[31][34][36]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas
_1547/v
2/
> � � > � � 11.
> � �
[32][35][37]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune
.pdf
> � � > � � 12.
[33][36][38]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> � � > � � 13.
mailto:[34][37][39][email protected]
> � � > � � 14.
> � �
[35][38][40]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_libr
ary/ms.
z.3.
> � � 2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
> � � > � � 15.
> � �
[36][39][41]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_ha
ge/MS_2
8.B.
> � � 39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
> � � > � � 16.
> � �
[37][40][42]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fant
asia_01
.pdf
> � � > � � 17.
[38][41][43]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
> � � > � � 18.
> � �
[39][42][44]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas
_1547/v
2/pd
> � � f/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
> � � > � � 19.
> � �
[40][43][45]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune
.pdf
> � � > � � 20.
[41][44][46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> � � >
>
> � � --
>
> References
>
> � � 1.
[45][47]http://gerbode.net/sources/E-SIM_simancas_archivo_general/le
g_394_s
imancas_vihuela_ms_1520/pdf/3_contrapunto_sobre_conde_claros.pdf
> � � 2.
[46][48]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_1/pdf/
> � � 3.
[47][49]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_2/pdf/
> � � 4. mailto:[48][50][email protected]
> � � 5. [49][51]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
> � � 6.
[50][52]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
> � � 7. mailto:[51][53][email protected]
> � � 8. mailto:[52][54][email protected]
> � � 9.
[53][55]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/
ms
> � � 10.
[54][56]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/M
S_
> � � 11.
[55][57]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia
_0
> � � 12.
[56][58]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
> � � 13.
[57][59]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
7
> � � 14.
[58][60]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> � � 15. mailto:[59][61][email protected]
> � � 16.
[60][62]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/
ms.z
> � � 17.
[61][63]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/M
S_28
> � � 18.
[62][64]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
> � � 19.
[63][65]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
7/v2
> � � 20.
[64][66]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
> � � 21.
[65][67]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> � � 22. mailto:[66][68][email protected]
> � � 23. [67][69]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
> � � 24.
[68][70]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
> � � 25. mailto:[69][71][email protected]
> � � 26. mailto:[70][72][email protected]
> � � 27.
[71][73]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/
ms.z
> � � 28.
[72][74]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/M
S_28
> � � 29.
[73][75]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia
_01.p
> � � 30.
[74][76]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
> � � 31.
[75][77]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
7/v2/
> � � 32.
[76][78]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
> � � 33.
[77][79]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> � � 34. mailto:[78][80][email protected]
> � � 35.
[79][81]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/
ms.z.3.
2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
> � � 36.
[80][82]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/M
S_28.B.
39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
> � � 37.
[81][83]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia
_01.pdf
> � � 38.
[82][84]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
> � � 39.
[83][85]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
7/v2/pd
f/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
> � � 40.
[84][86]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
> � � 41.
[85][87]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:[88][email protected]
2. mailto:[89][email protected]
3.
[90]http://gerbode.net/sources/E-SIM_simancas_archivo_general/leg_39
4_si
4. [91]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_1/pdf/
5. [92]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_2/pdf/
6. mailto:[93][email protected]
7. [94]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
8. [95]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
9. mailto:[96][email protected]
10. mailto:[97][email protected]
11.
[98]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/ms
12.
[99]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/MS
13.
[100]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia_
14. [101]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
15.
[102]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
16. [103]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. mailto:[104][email protected]
18.
[105]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/ms
19.
[106]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/MS_2
20.
[107]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia_01
21. [108]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
22.
[109]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_1547/v
23.
[110]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
24. [111]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
25. mailto:[112][email protected]
26. [113]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
27. [114]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
28. mailto:[115][email protected]
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172. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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