Hmm... a Romanesca is not a Passamezzo model though.

If you consider Passamezzo as a blanket term for cyclic variation models, this would apply to many other pieces.

That's an interesting discussion though!


On 23.03.20 20:35, Sean Smith wrote:
    Tristan,
    If you're looking for an early passemezo of Spanish character, there is
    a Romanesca in Dalza, f46.
    Sean

    On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:50 AM Tristan von Neumann
    <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

         Sorry, I trusted the number Sarge put on his edition.
         So it's not from 1520 after all? No problem. That's even more
         interesting, because this means that Hans Judenkünig's Spanish
      Dance in
         his 1523 book is earlier than any of the actual Spanish sources.
         It's similar to the dance in Simancas.
         Like Hans Newsidler had the earliest Passamezzo though it's an
      Italian
         dance...
         On 23.03.20 19:35, Antonio Corona wrote:
         We should be careful not to put forward our thoughts as facts.
      Try
         Narváez (1538), it even predates the French guitar versions, not
      to
         mention the later English lute versions (and it is not a
         recommendation).
         Cheers
         Antonio
         On Monday, 23 March 2020, 04:46:37 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann
         [1]<[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
         I thought this was the oldest known vihuela tablature?
         Feel free to recommend an earlier version!
         I'm interested.
         On 23.03.20 11:26, Antonio Corona wrote:
         > � � How can you be so certain that this is the earliest
      example of
         the
         > � � Conde Claros?
         > � � Best regards to everybody,
         > � � Antonio
         >
         > � � On Sunday, 22 March 2020, 14:25:51 GMT-6, Tristan von
      Neumann
         > � � <[2][3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
         > � � For some Condes Claros beginner fun, check out this
      duet (you can
         > � � record
         > � � the second part and play to it).
         > � � It's also the earliest example.
         > � �

      [1][3][4]http://gerbode.net/sources/E-SIM_simancas_archivo_general/l
      eg_394
         _si
         > � �
      mancas_vihuela_ms_1520/pdf/3_contrapunto_sobre_conde_claros.pdf
         > � � The best beginner's book (I learned to play with it) is
      certainly
         the
         > � � one by Hans Newsidler:
         > � �
      [2][4][5]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_1/pdf/
         > � �
      [3][5][6]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_2/pdf/
         > � � The great thing is that Newsidler carefully progresses,
         introducing
         > � � just
         > � � one new aspect per piece.
         > � � Also the first couple of pieces have only two voices,
      the third
         can
         > � � optionally be sung (it's popular tunes everyone knew
      back then).
         > � � Other books like Robinson's School of Music seem too
      difficult
         and
         > � � unorganized for the beginner.
         > � � Though Robinson is nice and the introduction helpful,
      it fails to
         > � � create
         > � � a learning curve.
         > � � On 22.03.20 20:44, Sean Smith wrote:
         > � � > � � You're right. It is long and involved 
and
      certainly has its
         > � � difficult
         > � � > � � bits.
         > � � > � � It might be a project for someone with 
time
      on their hands
         to
         > � � select
         > � � > � � bits for easier sections to play. It 
has its
      parallels with
         Conde
         > � � > � � Claros which went through many 
personal edits
      at the time
         so it
         > � � would
         > � � > � � hardly be anachronistic to edit it to 
one's
      specs. I would
         like to
         > � � > � � think that there's something in there 
for
      everybody.
         > � � > � � Sean
         > � � >
         > � � > � � On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 3:04 AM Jurgen 
Frenz
         > � � > � �
      <[1][4][6][7]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote:
         > � � >
         > � � > � � � if it is for easy pieces to 
play or
      re-work basic
         technique I
         > � � found
         > � � > � � � Lynda Says quarterly advice 
quite useful
      and the higher
         numbers
         > � � are
         > � � > � � � not so easy either:
         > � � > � � �
      [2][5][7][8]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
         > � � > � � � Further there's a list of 
tentative
      "grades" of
         difficulty of
         > � � lute
         > � � > � � � pieces, not everybody feels the 
same as
      we all have
         different
         > � � > � � � difficulties but nice to go 
through
         > � � > � � �
         [3][6][8][9]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
         > � � > � � � Best wishes
         > � � > � � � JÃÆÃâ ÃÆ à �rgen
         > � � > � � � ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ à 
ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã
      ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ à � Original
         Message ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ 
Ã ï¿½ÃÆ Ã ï¿½ÃÆ à �
         > � � > � � � On Sunday, March 22, 2020 5:23 
AM, Sean
      Smith
         > � � > � � � 
<[4][7][9][10]lutesm...@gmail.com> wrote:
         > � � > � � � > Both faves and we're lucky to 
have
      them.
         > � � > � � � > I know you like finding 
hidden things,
      Tristan. Go to
         the
         > � � really
         > � � > � � � long
         > � � > � � � > [Dump] on f280 in the Marsh. 
There's a
      measure missing
         between
         > � � 114
         > � � > � � � and
         > � � > � � � > 115. Put in something you 
like or
      steal/adapt a measure
         from
         > � � > � � � elsewhere.
         > � � > � � � > Now here's the fun part, 
record it
      carefully, then play
         it
         > � � against
         > � � > � � � the
         > � � > � � � > recording with a lag of 4 
measures.
      It's not perfect
         but it
         > � � works
         > � � > � � � kind
         > � � > � � � > of nicely. It will certainly 
keep you
      occupied for an
         > � � afternoon or
         > � � > � � � two.
         > � � > � � � > ...and it's excellent 
metronome
      practice regardless.
         > � � > � � � > Whether it was meant that way 
is hard
      to say and,
         depending on
         > � � > � � � whom you
         > � � > � � � > talk to, even suggesting it 
is probably
      irresponsible
         with a
         > � � touch
         > � � > � � � of
         > � � > � � � > 'shame on you!'. There's 
certainly no
      indication. It
         also
         > � � starts a
         > � � > � � � > little abruptly so you might 
add a few
      C and G
         iterations on
         > � � the
         > � � > � � � front
         > � � > � � � > end.
         > � � > � � � > Sean
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � > � � � > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:13 
PM Tristan
      von Neumann
         > � � > � � � >
      <[1][5][8][10][11]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � > � � � > Many of you might have more 
time on
      their hands than
         usual.
         > � � > � � � > So here's a list of favorite 
books and
      manuscripts to
         play.
         > � � > � � � > * Marsh Lute Book. Fun for 
weeks.
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � >
         > � �

      [2][6][9][11][12]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs
      _librar
         y/ms
         > � � > � � � .z.
         > � � > � � � > 3.2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
         > � � > � � � > * Siena Ms. - it never fails 
to
      surprise
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � >
         > � �

      [3][7][10][12][13]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_
      den_hag
         e/MS
         > � � _
         > � � > � � � 28.
         > � � > � � � > B.39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
         > � � > � � � > * If you want to concentrate 
on one
      piece: this one
         will keep
         > � � you
         > � � > � � � > busy
         > � � > � � � > for a long time.
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � >
         > � �

      [4][8][11][13][14]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/0
      1_fanta
         sia_
         > � � 0
         > � � > � � � 1.p
         > � � > � � � > df
         > � � > � � � > * he learned from the best: 
This book
      by Paladin is
         extremely
         > � � > � � � > charming
         > � � > � � � > and not too difficult
         > � � > � � � >

      [5][9][12][14][15]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pd
      f/
         > � � > � � � > * in times like these...
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � >
         > � �

      [6][10][13][15][16]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_
      sirenas
         _154
         > � � 7
         > � � > � � � /v2/
         > � � > � � � > 
pdf/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
         > � � > � � � >
         [7][11][17]gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
         > � � > � � � > Let's hope the best for us 
all.
         > � � > � � � > Enjoy life.
         > � � > � � � > To get on or off this list 
see list
      information at
         > � � > � � � >
         > � �

      [8][12][14][16][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index
      .html
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � >
         > � �

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
         > � � > � � � ----------------------
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � > � � � > References
         > � � > � � � >
         > � � > � � � > 1. �
      mailto:[13][15][17][19]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         > � � > � � � > 2.
         > � � >
         > � �

      [14][16][18][20]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_
      library
         /ms.
         > � � z
         > � � > � � � .3.2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
         > � � > � � � > 3.
         > � � >
         > � �

      [15][17][19][21]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_de
      n_hage/
         MS_2
         > � � 8
         > � � > � � � .B.39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
         > � � > � � � > 4.
         > � � >
         > � �

      [16][20][22]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fant
      asia_01
         .
         > � � > � � � pdf
         > � � > � � � > 5.
         > � �
      [17][18][21][23]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
         > � � > � � � > 6.
         > � � >
         > � �

      [18][19][22][24]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sir
      enas_15
         47/v
         > � � 2
         > � � > � � � 
/pdf/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
         > � � > � � � > 7.
         > � � >
         > � �

      [19][20][23][25]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_
      tune.pd
         f
         > � � > � � � > 8.
         > � �

      [20][21][24][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.ht
      ml
         > � � >
         > � � > � � --
         > � � >
         > � � > References
         > � � >
         > � � > � � 1.
      mailto:[22][25][27]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com
         > � � > � � 2.
      [23][26][28]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
         > � � > � � 3.
         [24][27][29]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
         > � � > � � 4. 
mailto:[25][28][30]lutesm...@gmail.com
         > � � > � � 5.
      mailto:[26][29][31]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         > � � > � � 6.
         > � �

      [27][30][32]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_libr
      ary/ms.
         z
         > � � > � � 7.
         > � �

      [28][31][33]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_ha
      ge/MS_2
         8
         > � � > � � 8.
         > � �

      [29][32][34]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fant
      asia_01
         .p
         > � � > � � 9.
         [30][33][35]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
         > � � > � � 10.
         > � �

      [31][34][36]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas
      _1547/v
         2/
         > � � > � � 11.
         > � �

      [32][35][37]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune
      .pdf
         > � � > � � 12.

      [33][36][38]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         > � � > � � 13.
      mailto:[34][37][39]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         > � � > � � 14.
         > � �

      [35][38][40]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_libr
      ary/ms.
         z.3.
         > � � 2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
         > � � > � � 15.
         > � �

      [36][39][41]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_ha
      ge/MS_2
         8.B.
         > � � 39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
         > � � > � � 16.
         > � �

      [37][40][42]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fant
      asia_01
         .pdf
         > � � > � � 17.
         [38][41][43]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
         > � � > � � 18.
         > � �

      [39][42][44]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas
      _1547/v
         2/pd
         > � � f/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
         > � � > � � 19.
         > � �

      [40][43][45]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune
      .pdf
         > � � > � � 20.

      [41][44][46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         > � � >
         >
         > � � --
         >
         > References
         >
         > � � 1.

      [45][47]http://gerbode.net/sources/E-SIM_simancas_archivo_general/le
      g_394_s
         imancas_vihuela_ms_1520/pdf/3_contrapunto_sobre_conde_claros.pdf
         > � � 2.
      [46][48]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_1/pdf/
         > � � 3.
      [47][49]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_2/pdf/
         > � � 4. mailto:[48][50]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com
         > � � 5. [49][51]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
         > � � 6.
      [50][52]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
         > � � 7. mailto:[51][53]lutesm...@gmail.com
         > � � 8. mailto:[52][54]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         > � � 9.

      [53][55]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/
      ms
         > � � 10.

      [54][56]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/M
      S_
         > � � 11.

      [55][57]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia
      _0
         > � � 12.
      [56][58]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
         > � � 13.

      [57][59]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
      7
         > � � 14.
      [58][60]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         > � � 15. mailto:[59][61]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         > � � 16.

      [60][62]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/
      ms.z
         > � � 17.

      [61][63]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/M
      S_28
         > � � 18.
      [62][64]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
         > � � 19.

      [63][65]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
      7/v2
         > � � 20.

      [64][66]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
         > � � 21.
      [65][67]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         > � � 22. mailto:[66][68]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com
         > � � 23. [67][69]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners
         > � � 24.
      [68][70]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades
         > � � 25. mailto:[69][71]lutesm...@gmail.com
         > � � 26. mailto:[70][72]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         > � � 27.

      [71][73]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/
      ms.z
         > � � 28.

      [72][74]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/M
      S_28
         > � � 29.

      [73][75]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia
      _01.p
         > � � 30.
      [74][76]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
         > � � 31.

      [75][77]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
      7/v2/
         > � � 32.

      [76][78]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
         > � � 33.
      [77][79]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         > � � 34. mailto:[78][80]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         > � � 35.

      [79][81]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/
      ms.z.3.
         2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/
         > � � 36.

      [80][82]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/M
      S_28.B.
         39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/
         > � � 37.

      [81][83]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia
      _01.pdf
         > � � 38.
      [82][84]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/
         > � � 39.

      [83][85]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154
      7/v2/pd
         f/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
         > � � 40.

      [84][86]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/pdf/anon_the_sick_tune.pdf
         > � � 41.
      [85][87]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
         >
         --
      References
         1. mailto:[88]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         2. mailto:[89]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
         3.
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