Thanks a lot Martin. Incredible these left hand fingerings that he proposes.
Em qua., 29 de abr. de 2020 à s 14:29, Martin Shepherd <[1][email protected]> escreveu: Yes, there are several chords which require using a finger (any finger) to cover two or more courses, and Waissel even gives us fingerings which involve using the second finger to hold to top two courses, in a context where we would use a barré. See my blog: [2]https://luteshop.co.uk/all-fingers-and-thumbs/ Martin On 28/04/2020 23:15, Guilherme Barroso wrote: > Yes, indeed. > For me, it makes more and more sense to view these intabulations as a > way to show the whole vocal piece and not something to be performed > exactly as written. > About the BarrÃÃà ©s with any other finger then the first. Has anyone > seen a historical source discuss this? I don't recall seeing one. > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ãà s 23:04, <[1][3][email protected]> > escreveu: > > This is really quite an extreme example! But maybe with a different > technique it would be possible e.g. to play the first chord? > Sometimes, > I have the impression that they used also BarrÃÃà ©s with the second or > third finger, which would (theoretically) make it possible to play > the > first chord. Just today I found an similar chord in a piece by > Hurel, > which would need a barrÃÃà © with the second or fourth finger. I'll > hopefully get my new renaissance lute this or next week (7courses, > 85cm), I'm very curious to try it! :-) and then still we have to > consider a world without 1. printed full scores and 2. recordings. > So, > in order to study a piece of music, you would have to perform - or > read > it - just by yourself. Maybe this was really kind of "full score" > for > them - you can use it to study the music and counterpoint, and if > you > actually want to perfor it you still can decide to omit some notes. > Am 28.04.2020 21:25 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > > Dear Yuval, > > > > Thanks a lot for your answer. > > > > I have a 7c course 60cm lute and it does not get much easier at > some > > places. Of course with your lute, even worse. > > > > But there are some parts that even with a small lute, it is just > not > > possible. > > > > I attach in this email an example from Barbetta's publication from > > 1582. In the marked passage, already the first chord is not > possible > > to play (this chord appears often in this publication and also in > > Terzi's books), the next two bars are not better. even if you find > a > > way to do it by some kind of arpeggio, how make it sound musical? > > > > Em ter., 28 de abr. de 2020 Ãà s 20:50, <[2][4][email protected]> > > escreveu: > > > >> Dear Guilherme, > >> > >> it's interesting what Philippe writes about Il Fronimo, it would > be > >> nice > >> to talk with him about all this stuff. I met him some weeks ago, > >> and > >> he's the only guy I know who isn't lutenist at all and can read > all > >> kind > >> of tablature fluently - quite crazy! > >> To respond to your question I can only offer a view on my > personal > >> experience as well as some thoughts about it: From my practical > >> experience I had to ask myself exactly these questions when > Martina > >> and > >> me were recording our CD with diminutions. She played them on > >> traverso - > >> so I could just play the madrigals without the canto, which > worked > >> quite > >> well - but also with violone, and for this I had to play all the > >> voices. > >> Since at this time I had only a fairly big lute (10 courses, > 67cm), > >> I > >> decided to step away from perfectly playing all voicing with a > >> perfect > >> voiceleading, and instead making an arrangement which kept the > >> madrigals > >> recognizable, but at the same time quitting some tones of the > inner > >> > >> voices and making the intabulations/arrangements more idiomatic > for > >> the > >> lute, because above all I though it was more important to get a > >> good > >> phrasing and to make good music instead of hurting my hand. If > >> you're > >> interested in the choices I made, you can find some of the pieces > >> we > >> recorded on youtube. > >> Regarding the amount of instructions about making owns > >> intabulations, > >> Philippe's argument seems not at all unlikely for me. But at the > >> same > >> time I'm asking myself about the differences in taste then and > now > >> (maybe for them it was most important to render the madrigal > >> exactly? At > >> the end, they lived in a sphere where only polyphonic music > >> existed, so > >> maybe they would have heard the mistakes made by making the > >> intabulations more suitable for the lute?), and also about which > >> role > >> the size of the lute plays. Did you try to play the "unplayable" > >> parts > >> on a smaller lute? You could just use an capo in your second or > >> third > >> fret, just to try how it feels with a small instrument. > >> > >> All the best, > >> Yuval > >> > >> Am 28.04.2020 15:12 schrieb Guilherme Barroso: > >>> Dear Lute collective, > >>> For some time i've been thinking about some aspects about the > >>> intabulation of vocal pieces and i would like to know your > >> ideas. > >>> When we look to the gigantic repertoire of vocal intabulations > >> to > >>> the > >>> lute we encounter several pieces that are incredibly difficult > >> to > >>> play. > >>> Intabulations done by Molinaro, Terzi, Barbetta, for example, > >> some > >>> times present passages that are not only very demanding > >> technically > >>> but also with impossible chord positions. Canguilhem, in his > >> book > >>> about Galilei's Fronimo treatise, says that the main goal of > >>> Galilei's > >>> intabulations was to study the counterpoint and composition, > >> not to > >>> be > >>> played. He even compares Galilei's intabulation of Vestiva i > >> Colli > >>> for > >>> solo lute (where the madrigal is complete with all the voices) > >> and > >>> another version for lute and bass solo (where the lute part is > >>> extremely simplified with supression of voices). The lute and > >> voice > >>> version for sure was intended to be performed while the other > >> might > >>> be > >>> intended to be studied. The act of intabulating would be the > >> same > >>> as > >>> making a score for study purposes. > >>> There are a lot of intabulations in the repertoire that are > >> more > >>> concerned in maintaining all the voices of the original work > >> then > >>> making some concessions to adapt it better to the instrument. > >>> Of course, we are dealing with a huge repertoire from several > >>> composers > >>> and several places with specific differences. Le Roy, for > >> example, > >>> is > >>> more willing to make changes to adapt to the instrument, he > >> says > >>> that > >>> the "playability and beauty should come first". > >>> But even very complex intabulations were clearly meant to be > >> played, > >>> like the Terzi intabulations of vocal pieces that present a > >>> "Contrapunto" from another lute. Terzi intabulations clearly > >> prefer > >>> to > >>> maintain the original vocal piece in the intabulation in spite > >> of > >>> the > >>> diffculty to play. > >>> What do you think about this? > >>> When you play this repertoire, do you try to keep all notes? > >> Do you > >>> omit certain notes to make it more playful? Do you make > >> decision > >>> based > >>> on the musical flow? > >>> I am very curious to hear your ideas. > >>> All the best, > >>> -- > >>> Guilherme Barroso > >>> [1][3][5]www.guilherme-barroso.com [1] > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> References > >>> > >>> 1. [4][6]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ [2] > >>> > >>> > >>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>> [5][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html [3] > > > > -- > > > > Guilherme Barroso > > [6][8]www.guilherme-barroso.com [1] > > > > > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] [7][9]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com > > [2] [8][10]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ > > [3] [9][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > Guilherme Barroso > [10][12]www.guilherme-barroso.com > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[13][email protected] > 2. mailto:[14][email protected] > 3. [15]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ > 4. [16]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ > 5. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. [18]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ > 7. [19]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ > 8. [20]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ > 9. [21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 10. [22]http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [23]https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- Guilherme Barroso [24]www.guilherme-barroso.com -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. https://luteshop.co.uk/all-fingers-and-thumbs/ 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 6. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 9. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 10. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. mailto:[email protected] 15. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 16. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 19. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 20. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 22. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/ 23. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 24. http://www.guilherme-barroso.com/
